Silmarillion - Chapter 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The invitation of Thingol to the Dwarves to meld the Nauglamír with a Silmaril certainly seems to be the beginning of the special breed of distrust, and even hate, that endured between Elves and Dwarves to the time of the War of the Ring.

I think that the distrust and even hate started long before that. Unless the world turned over without me realising it, Mim and Beleg did not get along very well. Beleg was passive. Mim was silently boiling, and it is clear that he had reason to boil. Elves and Dwarves had conflicts way before the Nauglamir issue, even though it was with a different kind of Dwarves.

The text seems to make it clear that her withdrawal was only a side-effect: the loss of her powers would have been due to emotional trauma, something that, again due to her nature, she was unused to dealing with.

Agreed about the effect on her. Where does it say that she lost her power? I remember assuming that on another thread a long time ago, but when I looked for evidence I couldn't find any.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that the distrust and even hate started long before that. Unless the world turned over without me realising it, Mim and Beleg did not get along very well. Beleg was passive. Mim was silently boiling, and it is clear that he had reason to boil. Elves and Dwarves had conflicts way before the Nauglamir issue, even though it was with a different kind of Dwarves.

Undoubtedly, there was mutual dislike from the first appearance of the Dwarves, as least as far as most of the the Elves of Beleriand were concerned. Still, I think the incident at Menegroth was the start of the active enmity the two races held for one another. I can't see little grievances as likely to carry over thousands of years.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Agreed about the effect on her. Where does it say that she lost her power? I remember assuming that on another thread a long time ago, but when I looked for evidence I couldn't find any.

In this chapter, it is said that after Thingol's death:

....a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forest of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.

All that says to me that the withdrawing of her power was involuntary. I can't see her, even mourning Thingol as she was, being so selfish as to deliberately strip the people she had taken as her own of protection.

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Undoubtedly, there was mutual dislike from the first appearance of the Dwarves, as least as far as most of the the Elves of Beleriand were concerned. Still, I think the incident at Menegroth was the start of the active enmity the two races held for one another. I can't see little grievances as likely to carry over thousands of years.

Inziladun, the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves (of which Mim was the last) by the Sindar Elves of Beleriand was not amusing to greater Dwarves. Despite the fact that the Petty-Dwarves were exiles, they were still considered kin by the other Dwarves and the injuries done to the Petty-Dwarves were resented by the other Dwarves. However, the incident at Menegroth caused mutual distrust and hatred.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In this chapter, it is said that after Thingol's death:



All that says to me that the withdrawing of her power was involuntary. I can't see her, even mourning Thingol as she was, being so selfish as to deliberately strip the people she had taken as her own of protection.

What is peculiar is that, while she left her people without the protection of the Girdle, leading to the Dwarvish victory at the Battle of the Thousand Caves (where my alter ego won the day ), she also told Mablung to find Beren and make him ambush the Dwarves at the Sarn Athrad, where they were massacred.

By the way, has anyone wondered how and why the Ents came to be included in Beren's ambush of the Dwarves?
King Naugladur.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by King Naugladur

What is peculiar is that, while she left her people without the protection of the Girdle, leading to the Dwarvish victory at the Battle of the Thousand Caves (where my alter ego won the day ), she also told Mablung to find Beren and make him ambush the Dwarves at the Sarn Athrad, where they were massacred.

It seems the withdrawal of the Girdle was not a conscious act by Melian, but a symptom of her emotional and spiritual despair at the death of Thingol. Knowing that she was, either temporarily or no, incapable of doing anything herself to recover the Nauglamír, she did what she could to stop the Dwarves.

Originally Posted by King Naugladur

By the way, has anyone wondered how and why the Ents came to be included in Beren's ambush of the Dwarves?
King Naugladur.

The Ents would have been close to the Green-elves, and the latter likely told them what had happened in Doriath.

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems the withdrawal of the Girdle was not a conscious act by Melian, but a symptom of her emotional and spiritual despair at the death of Thingol. Knowing that she was, either temporarily or no, incapable of doing anything herself to recover the Nauglamír, she did what she could to stop the Dwarves.

To me, it seems that Melian returned to Valinor in order to mourn her husband's death and possibly plead for his release from Mandos. After all, Melian was a Maia. She could have waited for Beren show up with his host or the war between Nogrod and Doriath end in one way or another and then go and mourn for her husband.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Ents would have been close to the Green-elves, and the latter likely told them what had happened in Doriath.

Quite a good explanation, Inziladun.
King Naugladur.

[Faramir Jones]

Nice to see that you restarted this thread, King Naugladur!

Aiwendil was very good in detailing the sources that went into Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion. I would like to bring up what was in Chapter 8 of The Hobbit (1937). In describing the capture of Thorin by the Wood-elves, Tolkien said that they 'did not love dwarves', and thought of Thorin as 'an enemy'. The explanation for this was then given:

In ancient days they had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.

While there is no mention here of the Silmaril and the Nauglamír, this passage appears to be based on the versions in The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2. I'd be interested to know what people think.

King Naugladur, you said that the dwarves were 'right in requesting the Nauglamir, which was the work of their fathers. The whole hoard of Nargothrond was their rightful property, to be more specific'. I disagree with you.

Yes, the dwarves delved what was Nargothrond for Finrod Felagund, and also made the Nauglamír for him. In both cases, they appear to have been well and properly paid.

The whole hoard was therefore Finrod's property. Glaurung had no more right to the hoard than Smaug in later ages had to the hoard under the Lonely Mountain.
The same is true regarding Mîm, even if he was originally from Nogrod. Húrin then gave the Nauglamír, part of the hoard, to a relative of Finrod, Thingol, who was his great-uncle. It's possible that other relatives would have had a claim to the hoard, such as Finrod's sister Galadriel, and his cousin Turgon. But I don't see any dwarves having any legitimate claim.

According to what was in Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion, the dwarves of Nogrod who were asked to add the Silmaril to the Nauglamír were 'filled with a great lust' to posess both and carry them off. When they finished their task, they witheld the Nauglamír from Thingol, claiming it was made for Finrod Felagund 'who is dead'. It then, according to them, came by the hand of Húrin 'who took it as a thief'. Thingol knew it was a 'pretext and fair cloak for their true intent'.

It appears that the dwarves were just inventing excuses. Finrod's death did not give them the right to inherit any of his property. At least Húrin gave the necklace to a relative of Finrod.

That said, as well as being unwise, it was deeply unworthy of a great king like Thingol to abuse the dwarves, calling them of 'uncouth race' and 'stunted people', not to mention demanding they leave unrewarded. He should have requested they leave after giving them the appropriate payment for the work they had completed.

However, the dwarves committed the ultimate offence, completely violating their status as guests, by murdering their host and stealing his property. (At least he had a better right to the necklace than they.) Also, it was made worse by the two surviving dwarves, who incorrectly claimed that the others of their party had been killed at the command of Thingol 'who thus would cheat them of their reward'.

What do people think?

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

King Naugladur, you said that the dwarves were 'right in requesting the Nauglamir, which was the work of their fathers. The whole hoard of Nargothrond was their rightful property, to be more specific'. I disagree with you.

Yes, the dwarves delved what was Nargothrond for Finrod Felagund, and also made the Nauglamír for him. In both cases, they appear to have been well and properly paid.

The whole hoard was therefore Finrod's property. Glaurung had no more right to the hoard than Smaug in later ages had to the hoard under the Lonely Mountain.
The same is true regarding Mîm, even if he was originally from Nogrod. Húrin then gave the Nauglamír, part of the hoard, to a relative of Finrod, Thingol, who was his great-uncle. It's possible that other relatives would have had a claim to the hoard, such as Finrod's sister Galadriel, and his cousin Turgon. But I don't see any dwarves having any legitimate claim.

According to what was in Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion, the dwarves of Nogrod who were asked to add the Silmaril to the Nauglamír were 'filled with a great lust' to posess both and carry them off. When they finished their task, they witheld the Nauglamír from Thingol, claiming it was made for Finrod Felagund 'who is dead'. It then, according to them, came by the hand of Húrin 'who took it as a thief'. Thingol knew it was a 'pretext and fair cloak for their true intent'.

It appears that the dwarves were just inventing excuses. Finrod's death did not give them the right to inherit any of his property. At least Húrin gave the necklace to a relative of Finrod.

That said, as well as being unwise, it was deeply unworthy of a great king like Thingol to abuse the dwarves, calling them of 'uncouth race' and 'stunted people', not to mention demanding they leave unrewarded. He should have requested they leave after giving them the appropriate payment for the work they had completed.

However, the dwarves committed the ultimate offence, completely violating their status as guests, by murdering their host and stealing his property. (At least he had a better right to the necklace than they.) Also, it was made worse by the two surviving dwarves, who incorrectly claimed that the others of their party had been killed at the command of Thingol 'who thus would cheat them of their reward'.

What do people think?

Dearest Faramir Jones,

The dwarves did not delve Nargothrond for Finord Felagund. Before the Noldor came from over the Sea, the Petty-Dwarves had settled there and called the place Nulukkizdin. They were driven away by the Elves, who did not understand that the Petty-Dwarves were fellow incarnates. Thus, Mim is right in saying that the hoard belongs to him, sine he is the last of the original owners of Nargothrond. Also, since Finrod was dead and the realm of Nargothrond was no more after Glaurung sacked it, the treasure did not belong to nobody, but to the one who established claim over it and he was Mim. Hurin slew the Dwarf and then took the Nauglamir (in older versions, Mim cursed the treasure before dying).
Not even the Silmaril did not belong to Thingol. Since it was crafted by Feanor and Feanor was dead, it belonged to his sons. What do you think?
King Naugladur.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I would like to bring up what was in Chapter 8 of The Hobbit (1937). In describing the capture of Thorin by the Wood-elves, Tolkien said that they 'did not love dwarves', and thought of Thorin as 'an enemy'. The explanation for this was then given:

In ancient days they had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.

While there is no mention here of the Silmaril and the Nauglamír, this passage appears to be based on the versions in The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2. I'd be interested to know what people think.

Yes, I agree that the passage from The Hobbit probably refers to this incident, and that it doesn't quite match the version in the published Silmarillion. It is more in line not only with the Lost Tales version of events but also with S, Q, the annals, etc. - in short, with all accounts written by J.R.R. Tolkien.