Silmarillion - Chapter 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath

[Faramir Jones]

Nice to see that you restarted this thread, King Naugladur!

Aiwendil was very good in detailing the sources that went into Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion. I would like to bring up what was in Chapter 8 of The Hobbit (1937). In describing the capture of Thorin by the Wood-elves, Tolkien said that they 'did not love dwarves', and thought of Thorin as 'an enemy'. The explanation for this was then given:

In ancient days they had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.

While there is no mention here of the Silmaril and the Nauglamír, this passage appears to be based on the versions in The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2. I'd be interested to know what people think.

King Naugladur, you said that the dwarves were 'right in requesting the Nauglamir, which was the work of their fathers. The whole hoard of Nargothrond was their rightful property, to be more specific'. I disagree with you.

Yes, the dwarves delved what was Nargothrond for Finrod Felagund, and also made the Nauglamír for him. In both cases, they appear to have been well and properly paid.

The whole hoard was therefore Finrod's property. Glaurung had no more right to the hoard than Smaug in later ages had to the hoard under the Lonely Mountain.
The same is true regarding Mîm, even if he was originally from Nogrod. Húrin then gave the Nauglamír, part of the hoard, to a relative of Finrod, Thingol, who was his great-uncle. It's possible that other relatives would have had a claim to the hoard, such as Finrod's sister Galadriel, and his cousin Turgon. But I don't see any dwarves having any legitimate claim.

According to what was in Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion, the dwarves of Nogrod who were asked to add the Silmaril to the Nauglamír were 'filled with a great lust' to posess both and carry them off. When they finished their task, they witheld the Nauglamír from Thingol, claiming it was made for Finrod Felagund 'who is dead'. It then, according to them, came by the hand of Húrin 'who took it as a thief'. Thingol knew it was a 'pretext and fair cloak for their true intent'.

It appears that the dwarves were just inventing excuses. Finrod's death did not give them the right to inherit any of his property. At least Húrin gave the necklace to a relative of Finrod.

That said, as well as being unwise, it was deeply unworthy of a great king like Thingol to abuse the dwarves, calling them of 'uncouth race' and 'stunted people', not to mention demanding they leave unrewarded. He should have requested they leave after giving them the appropriate payment for the work they had completed.

However, the dwarves committed the ultimate offence, completely violating their status as guests, by murdering their host and stealing his property. (At least he had a better right to the necklace than they.) Also, it was made worse by the two surviving dwarves, who incorrectly claimed that the others of their party had been killed at the command of Thingol 'who thus would cheat them of their reward'.

What do people think?

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

King Naugladur, you said that the dwarves were 'right in requesting the Nauglamir, which was the work of their fathers. The whole hoard of Nargothrond was their rightful property, to be more specific'. I disagree with you.

Yes, the dwarves delved what was Nargothrond for Finrod Felagund, and also made the Nauglamír for him. In both cases, they appear to have been well and properly paid.

The whole hoard was therefore Finrod's property. Glaurung had no more right to the hoard than Smaug in later ages had to the hoard under the Lonely Mountain.
The same is true regarding Mîm, even if he was originally from Nogrod. Húrin then gave the Nauglamír, part of the hoard, to a relative of Finrod, Thingol, who was his great-uncle. It's possible that other relatives would have had a claim to the hoard, such as Finrod's sister Galadriel, and his cousin Turgon. But I don't see any dwarves having any legitimate claim.

According to what was in Chapter 22 of the published Silmarillion, the dwarves of Nogrod who were asked to add the Silmaril to the Nauglamír were 'filled with a great lust' to posess both and carry them off. When they finished their task, they witheld the Nauglamír from Thingol, claiming it was made for Finrod Felagund 'who is dead'. It then, according to them, came by the hand of Húrin 'who took it as a thief'. Thingol knew it was a 'pretext and fair cloak for their true intent'.

It appears that the dwarves were just inventing excuses. Finrod's death did not give them the right to inherit any of his property. At least Húrin gave the necklace to a relative of Finrod.

That said, as well as being unwise, it was deeply unworthy of a great king like Thingol to abuse the dwarves, calling them of 'uncouth race' and 'stunted people', not to mention demanding they leave unrewarded. He should have requested they leave after giving them the appropriate payment for the work they had completed.

However, the dwarves committed the ultimate offence, completely violating their status as guests, by murdering their host and stealing his property. (At least he had a better right to the necklace than they.) Also, it was made worse by the two surviving dwarves, who incorrectly claimed that the others of their party had been killed at the command of Thingol 'who thus would cheat them of their reward'.

What do people think?

Dearest Faramir Jones,

The dwarves did not delve Nargothrond for Finord Felagund. Before the Noldor came from over the Sea, the Petty-Dwarves had settled there and called the place Nulukkizdin. They were driven away by the Elves, who did not understand that the Petty-Dwarves were fellow incarnates. Thus, Mim is right in saying that the hoard belongs to him, sine he is the last of the original owners of Nargothrond. Also, since Finrod was dead and the realm of Nargothrond was no more after Glaurung sacked it, the treasure did not belong to nobody, but to the one who established claim over it and he was Mim. Hurin slew the Dwarf and then took the Nauglamir (in older versions, Mim cursed the treasure before dying).
Not even the Silmaril did not belong to Thingol. Since it was crafted by Feanor and Feanor was dead, it belonged to his sons. What do you think?
King Naugladur.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I would like to bring up what was in Chapter 8 of The Hobbit (1937). In describing the capture of Thorin by the Wood-elves, Tolkien said that they 'did not love dwarves', and thought of Thorin as 'an enemy'. The explanation for this was then given:

In ancient days they had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.

While there is no mention here of the Silmaril and the Nauglamír, this passage appears to be based on the versions in The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2. I'd be interested to know what people think.

Yes, I agree that the passage from The Hobbit probably refers to this incident, and that it doesn't quite match the version in the published Silmarillion. It is more in line not only with the Lost Tales version of events but also with S, Q, the annals, etc. - in short, with all accounts written by J.R.R. Tolkien.

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Yes, I agree that the passage from The Hobbit probably refers to this incident, and that it doesn't quite match the version in the published Silmarillion. It is more in line not only with the Lost Tales version of events but also with S, Q, the annals, etc. - in short, with all accounts written by J.R.R. Tolkien.

Yes, what a pity that JRRT did not revise "The Tale of the Nauglafring" and the account in the published "Silmarillion" did, as a result, contain much Gay Kay. Thus, we don't really know if the murder of Thingol inside his halls was an idea of JRRT, CT or Gay Kay.
King Naugladur.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for your comment, Aiwendil. When I first read the 1977 Silmarillion, I made a connection between the killing of Thingol by the Dwarves of Nogrod and that reference in The Hobbit, so thought that including the latter in this thread would add to the debate.

King Naugladur, I was very interested in your last comment:

The dwarves did not delve Nargothrond for Finord Felagund. Before the Noldor came from over the Sea, the Petty-Dwarves had settled there and called the place Nulukkizdin. They were driven away by the Elves, who did not understand that the Petty-Dwarves were fellow incarnates. Thus, Mim is right in saying that the hoard belongs to him, since he is the last of the original owners of Nargothrond. Also, since Finrod was dead and the realm of Nargothrond was no more after Glaurung sacked it, the treasure did not belong to nobody, but to the one who established claim over it and he was Mim. Hurin slew the Dwarf and then took the Nauglamir (in older versions, Mim cursed the treasure before dying). Not even the Silmaril did not belong to Thingol. Since it was crafted by Feanor and Feanor was dead, it belonged to his sons.

In answer to it, while Mîm had an arguable claim to ownership of the halls of Nargothrond, he had none on the hoard it contained, which consisted of treasure Finrod brought out of Valinor, or manufactured for him for which he paid, such as the Nauglamír. It was inherited by his brother Orodreth on his death, and when the latter and his daughter Finduilas died, any claim of inheritance would go to other relatives, including Thingol. Húrin did not keep the Nauglamír for himself, but gave it to Thingol, who had an arguable claim to it.

Regarding the Silmaril, I agree that it belonged to the sons of Fëanor, and also agree with Melian's suggestion to her husband to return it to them. I also understand his refusal to do so, not just on the grounds of the sacrifices his daughter and son-in-law made to obtain it, but his refusal to give anything to the sons of Fëanor, who massacred his relatives and stole their property, and two of whom kidnapped his daughter. Such considerations, understandably and sadly, took precedence over realpolitik.

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Thanks for your comment, Aiwendil. When I first read the 1977 Silmarillion, I made a connection between the killing of Thingol by the Dwarves of Nogrod and that reference in The Hobbit, so thought that including the latter in this thread would add to the debate.

King Naugladur, I was very interested in your last comment:

The dwarves did not delve Nargothrond for Finord Felagund. Before the Noldor came from over the Sea, the Petty-Dwarves had settled there and called the place Nulukkizdin. They were driven away by the Elves, who did not understand that the Petty-Dwarves were fellow incarnates. Thus, Mim is right in saying that the hoard belongs to him, since he is the last of the original owners of Nargothrond. Also, since Finrod was dead and the realm of Nargothrond was no more after Glaurung sacked it, the treasure did not belong to nobody, but to the one who established claim over it and he was Mim. Hurin slew the Dwarf and then took the Nauglamir (in older versions, Mim cursed the treasure before dying). Not even the Silmaril did not belong to Thingol. Since it was crafted by Feanor and Feanor was dead, it belonged to his sons.

In answer to it, while Mîm had an arguable claim to ownership of the halls of Nargothrond, he had none on the hoard it contained, which consisted of treasure Finrod brought out of Valinor, or manufactured for him for which he paid, such as the Nauglamír. It was inherited by his brother Orodreth on his death, and when the latter and his daughter Finduilas died, any claim of inheritance would go to other relatives, including Thingol. Húrin did not keep the Nauglamír for himself, but gave it to Thingol, who had an arguable claim to it.

Regarding the Silmaril, I agree that it belonged to the sons of Fëanor, and also agree with Melian's suggestion to her husband to return it to them. I also understand his refusal to do so, not just on the grounds of the sacrifices his daughter and son-in-law made to obtain it, but his refusal to give anything to the sons of Fëanor, who massacred his relatives and stole their property, and two of whom kidnapped his daughter. Such considerations, understandably and sadly, took precedence over realpolitik.

Hello Faramir Jones,

Mim had inheritance claim to the caverns of Narog where Nulukkizdin and later Nargothrond lay. But, Turin had promised Mim a "danwedh" (ransom) in case he stumbled upon treasure and he took the hoard of Nargothrond as his promised reward. Moreover, one could argue that Mim's inheritance covered everything found inside the halls of Nargothrond, including the treasure. And, since Mim had no close kin, as the Petty-Dwarves were wiped out, the treasure had to go to members of the race he belonged to. What do you think?

As for the Silmaril, Thingol was not involved in the dispute between Feanor and the Teleri of Aman. Moreover, he had already issued his countermeasure, having banned Quenya within his realm. The Silmaril did not belong to him and he had to give it.

PS. Do you know how can I put accents over the letters (such as the umlaut over "e" in the name of Feanor, etc.)?
King Naugladur.

[Faramir Jones]

King Naugladur, dealing first with what you had to say about Nargothrond and the Nauglamír:

Mim had inheritance claim to the caverns of Narog where Nulukkizdin and later Nargothrond lay. But, Turin had promised Mim a "danwedh" (ransom) in case he stumbled upon treasure and he took the hoard of Nargothrond as his promised reward. Moreover, one could argue that Mim's inheritance covered everything found inside the halls of Nargothrond, including the treasure. And, since Mim had no close kin, as the Petty-Dwarves were wiped out, the treasure had to go to members of the race he belonged to. What do you think?

We appear to agree that Mîm had at least an arguable claim regarding Nargothrond. But that would not necessarily include a claim on any of the hoard. There is a distinction in law between 'real property', i.e. immovable property, such as land and any improvements made to it, and 'personal property', i.e. movable property, that can be moved from one place to another. Nargothrond is real or immovable property, while the hoard is personal or movable property. Having an arguable claim on the first does not mean the dwarf has one on the second.

I don't see the issue of Túrin's promise of compensation to Mîm for killing one of his sons as relevant here. You can't give away what isn't yours; and I have read nothing that indicated Túrin had any claim of ownership to any of the hoard. Again, the hoard belonged to Finrod, and on his death would arguably go to his surviving relatives, including Thingol. At least Húrin gave part of the hoard to someone with an arguable claim to it, instead of keeping it for himself.

Looking at what you said second, about the Silmaril:

As for the Silmaril, Thingol was not involved in the dispute between Feanor and the Teleri of Aman. Moreover, he had already issued his countermeasure, having banned Quenya within his realm. The Silmaril did not belong to him and he had to give it.

How could Thingol not be involved in a dispute where the people of his brother Olwë were massacred and their property stolen? I again agree that he still should have returned the Silmaril to the sons of Fëanor, as it was rightfully theirs, and would negate some of the effects of the Oath.

In answer to what you asked here:

PS. Do you know how can I put accents over the letters (such as the umlaut over "e" in the name of Feanor, etc.)?

I tend to open another web page and copy and paste the relevant names into the message box.

[King Naugladur]

[QUOTE=Faramir Jones;697043
We appear to agree that Mîm had at least an arguable claim regarding Nargothrond. But that would not necessarily include a claim on any of the hoard. There is a distinction in law between 'real property', i.e. immovable property, such as land and any improvements made to it, and 'personal property', i.e. movable property, that can be moved from one place to another. Nargothrond is real or immovable property, while the hoard is personal or movable property. Having an arguable claim on the first does not mean the dwarf has one on the second.

I don't see the issue of Túrin's promise of compensation to Mîm for killing one of his sons as relevant here. You can't give away what isn't yours; and I have read nothing that indicated Túrin had [I]any[/I] claim of ownership to any of the hoard. Again, the hoard belonged to Finrod, and on his death would arguably go to his surviving relatives, including Thingol. At least Húrin gave part of the hoard to someone with an arguable claim to it, instead of keeping it for himself.

Looking at what you said second, about the Silmaril:


How could Thingol not be involved in a dispute where the people of his brother Olwë were massacred and their property stolen? I again agree that he still should have returned the Silmaril to the sons of Fëanor, as it was rightfully theirs, and would negate some of the effects of the Oath. [QUOTE]

Dearest Faramir Jones,

In fact, Mim was owed two compensations. One for lost profits, because when the Petty-Dwarves were ousted from Nargothrond, the profits they would have made if they delved the mines were denied to them and Turin's ransom for the killing of his son by Androg. The first compensation owed to Mim can justify his taking over the hoard, while the second can be used in order to say that Hurin's slaying of Mim was an unjust act. But, since Mim was slain, his inheritance should go to his people.

As for the Kinslaying, Thingol could demand a monetary or other compensation, but he should give the Silmaril to the rightful owners. I wonder, if Thingol demanded the Sons of Feanor pay an amount of coin to him in order to give them the Silmaril, what would their reaction be?

Waiting for your response,

King Naugladur.