Firiel... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 10-01-2011, 02:04 PM

I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B.

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood.

Faramir Jones · 10-02-2011, 08:24 AM

It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said:

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Galadriel55 · 10-02-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Or maybe he was inspired by the fact that Elves have to go and Men in general have to stay... And with the Elves leaves the high and beautiful...

morwen edhelwen · 11-09-2011, 07:52 PM

First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i>

morwen edhelwen · 11-09-2011, 07:57 PM

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

Galadriel55 · 11-09-2011, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

I've always thought that she was somewhere between 15 and 20 - like just before the age that they used to marry at. I guess it depends on what you consider to be a "young girl", but sure - young, unmarried... Though I can't say she's too young.

I don't believe it says anything that could give hints to her age, though I think I assumed her to be young because the story "feels" like she's growing up, letting go of her dreams and innocent ignorance, replacing toys and fancy dresses with work and practical clothing... It might be that when we first see her (when she "looked out") she is a girl, but when she came home and changed beautiful to practical she is a woman.

It's an interesting point that you made about the gender. Maybe Tolkien just wanted the character to be more gentle... so that does come down to poignant. And I think that "Earth's daughter" resonates better than "Earth's son".

And what is it with daughters? Earth's Daughter, River Daughter... The femininity gives a nice ring to it, as well as making the stories more elegant...

Don't kill me for the following few sentences, please...

In some native stories of creation the man appears in different ways, but he is always put there by the god(s)/spirits/etc. The man, then, finds the woman within nature (eg, in one story, she came to him from a cedar tree). Could the mythologies that have influenced Tolkien have similar ideas? The "Nature Daughter" thing is really interesting...

Edit: correction: she is called "Earth-maiden", so she's definitely in her youth.

Edit 2: I think that another reason for this poem to be so poignant (aside from the "growing up" thing) is the words "never more" in the last stanza. Just these two words by themselves are powerful enough, and with the context of the story - absolutely overwhelming.

morwen edhelwen · 11-09-2011, 10:30 PM

It seems like she spent the whole day outside too... few minutes to humans is 24 hours for Elves. The time compression makes it dreamlike.

10-01-2011, 02:04 PM	#1
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,511	Nice thread! I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B. I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world. But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

10-02-2011, 08:24 AM	#2
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	How much 're-handling'? It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said: I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world. Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

11-09-2011, 07:52 PM	#4
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	What is unusual... First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i> __________________ "Firiel looked out at three o'clock, The grey night was going" - J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Last Ship"

11-09-2011, 07:57 PM	#5
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	Oh, another thing Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem. __________________ "Firiel looked out at three o'clock, The grey night was going" - J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Last Ship"

11-09-2011, 10:30 PM	#7
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	And also It seems like she spent the whole day outside too... few minutes to humans is 24 hours for Elves. The time compression makes it dreamlike. __________________ "Firiel looked out at three o'clock, The grey night was going" - J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Last Ship"