What other fantasy books do YOU read?

[Galadriel55]

Talking of naive, Brienne beats all of them. She's a darling, but such a child too!

Originally Posted by Lal

I think they are very similar, despite one sister being very girly and the other a tomboy. They both have a lot to learn and I feel were sheltered to the extent that they were allowed to build up romantic notions of both being a lady and being a warrior. It's quite clever though, as it shows up what an idyllic upbringing they had at Winterfell and at the same time, means both of them have a lot of character development and potential left in them.

That made me think about what happened to them already. It seems that they both learned to hate, but on the other hand, it seems they've just got their first taste of it. And both of them have to learn how to control it and use it.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Pretty much all the reviews I've seen not only rave about the series' brilliance, they lavish praise on the "original" plotting and "deep, complex" characterisation. I mean, what the–?"

I remember hearing she wanted to take some of the most common fantasy cliches and see if she could make anything original of them. I think the Farseer trilogy is good enough a read - it's entertaining, and I was never too bothered by the things Galadriel & Nerwen mentioned. Hobb is good at carrying the plot, however her endings are often bad; too happy or simply waaay too unrealistic. I liked best the Liveship Traders series which is, in my opinion, a lot more interesting than the Six Duchies stuff... but it has also problems, such as dragons. I despise dragons, and hers are particularly awful.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I actually like Sandor Clegane a lot. He's the most interesting beast in a Beauty and the Beast thing. But I actually like that one for more than being an interesting character. Somehow he's closer to being a Ned than all these "honourable" true knights... The good, white Ned...

The Hound is the best ever. I've liked him since... A Clash of Kings, I think - but then, I never liked A Game of Thrones.

I also like Theon, and I pity him. I remember my thoughts when reading ACoK: "He seemed so nice, and now he's horrible... ah well he'll learn eventually; he'll be likeable again later on if he survives until then."

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I kept wondering how she can be so blind to not see anything beyond his face. She should have felt something for him - pity, at least. Respect. Understanding. I was waiting for the whole book for her to develop some kind of affection for him - and instead she goes for her Florian. Sansa disappoints me. I thought she learned her lesson of judging people by their appearance with her dear prince.

Sansa is not very intelligent. It probably has to do with her upbringing, but it might also be she's a bit slow, or then only naive and immature. Anyway, there's something very endearing about her. I am convinced she'll learn to stand up for herself (and feel something for the Hound) before the end of the series, or die trying.

Originally, Sansa and Dany were my least favourite characters. Now they're my two favourites. They both have grown a lot, and show potential for further growth.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Jon seems to be getting more and more confused as the series goes on. A Dance with Dragons was certainly a shock, regarding Jon.

My defence of Jon Snow has probably become a bit of a joke by now, but honestly I've never seen him as a pathetic/confused/whiny character. He knows what he wants, and he knows he can get it. He's the kind of person who prefers to do things by himself because that's the only way he can be sure they are done well. He thinks outside the box. The only thing he lacks is a simultaneous interpreter who could explain to others why Jon Snow's reasoning is sound, and that's why he lands into trouble every now and then.

When the series ends, I want a Targaryen on the throne. Not because of the dragons, but because the Targaryens are the coolest family.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

My defence of Jon Snow has probably become a bit of a joke by now, but honestly I've never seen him as a pathetic/confused/whiny character. He knows what he wants, and he knows he can get it. He's the kind of person who prefers to do things by himself because that's the only way he can be sure they are done well. He thinks outside the box. The only thing he lacks is a simultaneous interpreter who could explain to others why Jon Snow's reasoning is sound, and that's why he lands into trouble every now and then.

I never stated that he was pathetic or whiny. Just confused. I'm not blaming him, since Hell, come on, he's a fourteen (now fifteen?) year old boy who was shoved into a crazy leadership position in one of the toughest climates (if not THE toughest climate) in the Seven Kingdoms. His decisions were not easy, and I doubt I could have done better. He does, however, become colder than I'd like, and that's why I see a slow downward spiral in his humanity. I feel he's ultimately emotional, though, and he'll snap out of it. (If ADWD was just a shocker and nothing more).

IMO he lands into trouble because he's young - that's all.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That made me think about what happened to them already. It seems that they both learned to hate, but on the other hand, it seems they've just got their first taste of it. And both of them have to learn how to control it and use it.

I think that because neither of them have been taught about how to manipulate others, and neither of them were brought up with a knowledge that the world was a harsh place, once they both grow up then they stand the potential to be so much more deadly than anyone like Cersei could even dream about. Their lessons have been hard and learnt out in the world, on their own.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

My defence of Jon Snow has probably become a bit of a joke by now, but honestly I've never seen him as a pathetic/confused/whiny character. He knows what he wants, and he knows he can get it. He's the kind of person who prefers to do things by himself because that's the only way he can be sure they are done well. He thinks outside the box. The only thing he lacks is a simultaneous interpreter who could explain to others why Jon Snow's reasoning is sound, and that's why he lands into trouble every now and then.

I love Jon Snow too. He's anything but 'whiny' and I love how he is always slightly an outsider wherever he goes and whatever he achieves - and doesn't let that stop him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Agan

My defence of Jon Snow has probably become a bit of a joke by now, but honestly I've never seen him as a pathetic/confused/whiny character. He knows what he wants, and he knows he can get it. He's the kind of person who prefers to do things by himself because that's the only way he can be sure they are done well. He thinks outside the box. The only thing he lacks is a simultaneous interpreter who could explain to others why Jon Snow's reasoning is sound, and that's why he lands into trouble every now and then.

In 2-and-a-bit books there were only 2 narrations from him that I didn't like. One, that I really thought whiny, where his friends barely stop him from making the biggest blunder of his life and running away. The second - when he welcomes Sam into his company. I never liked bullying stories. Middle School force-feeds enough of them. Otherwise, he was not whiny or confused at all. It depends on how you define pathetic, because I think he is pretty wretched once he understood the role that Halfhand prepared for him. But then, he was so collected and even cunning during his talk with the king! He sure keeps his wits with him at all times!

Originally Posted by Lal

I think that because neither of them have been taught about how to manipulate others, and neither of them were brought up with a knowledge that the world was a harsh place, once they both grow up then they stand the potential to be so much more deadly than anyone like Cersei could even dream about. Their lessons have been hard and learnt out in the world, on their own.

Also they are likely to be more dangerous because they would appreciate the power of both Winterfell's virtues and southern court intrigue/manipulation, and once they will adjust to the latter, they'll make use of both. Cersei would never understand what it means to respect a man for being fair for justice's sake, because she never understood justice. She would only have half of what they would have.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

To go back to a previous book reference:

I read the first two books of Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles this week and enjoyed them tremendously! From the first lines of The Name of the Wind, which become a theme with variations, used as bookends in both books, I was captivated. The author created a very enjoyable main character, whom the reader gets to know at two times, both past and present, and I can hardly wait for the third part of the trilogy to find out what happens. The plot is interesting, the writing is very good, with some fascinating linguistic elements and turns of phrases.

On the other hand, I read the first few pages of Tad Williams' Shadowmarch and am not sure I care enough to continue...

As for my small change on the above-mentioned Song of Ice and Fire, I read them a few months ago. They certainly are page-turners, written as they are from various povs, but the farther they go, the more I get the feeling that the author is losing himself in his world, getting side-tracked with too many characters and locations. I'm not sure we will ever reach the end of the story...

[Lalwendë]

I hope he does get it together and bring all the storylines back and finish the series. It's the only fantasy fiction series aimed at adults I've read since I first picked up Lord of the Rings that I could say I've been obsessed with (though I've tried with many others).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

To go back to a previous book reference:

I read the first two books of Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles this week and enjoyed them tremendously! From the first lines of The Name of the Wind, which become a theme with variations, used as bookends in both books, I was captivated. The author created a very enjoyable main character, whom the reader gets to know at two times, both past and present, and I can hardly wait for the third part of the trilogy to find out what happens. The plot is interesting, the writing is very good, with some fascinating linguistic elements and turns of phrases.

I'm glad to hear that someone else has been captivated by the books! (I really have to get the second one.) The Kvothe character is so intriguing, as his life at different times draws different responses from the reader--and given that we, as you say, know him at two times, that's quite intriguing--and there's just enough hint of his complexity not to make him totally sympathetic.

Rothfuss has Tolkien's sure hand at using suggestion well in storymaking. His timing is also bang-on. Just when I find myself thoroughly enthralled by an event or situation ,events change, not in a cheap way, but to keep me on my toes (fingers?) and remind me that there's nothing maudlin or sentimental about this work.

Originally Posted by Lalawende

I hope he does get it together and bring all the storylines back and finish the series. It's the only fantasy fiction series aimed at adults I've read since I first picked up Lord of the Rings that I could say I've been obsessed with (though I've tried with many others).

Do take a gander at Rothfuss' work if you are looking for fantasy that can satisfy adults.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

To go back to a previous book reference:

I read the first two books of Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles this week and enjoyed them tremendously! From the first lines of The Name of the Wind, which become a theme with variations, used as bookends in both books, I was captivated.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm glad to hear that someone else has been captivated by the books!

My mouth is hanging open, my old friends! When NotW received so much buzz a couple of years back, I thought I'd check it out -- but he lost me in the first few sentences with the bit about the three-part silence. I read another couple of chapters, but I thought the writing was terrible and finally gave up. Now two wights whose tastes and opinions I highly value are gushing about the book. Did I just not push in far enough? Rothfuss seems to be a divisive writer. What do you guys think of the many complaints I've seen that Kvothe is the epitome of a Mary Sue character?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

My mouth is hanging open, my old friends! When NotW received so much buzz a couple of years back, I thought I'd check it out -- but he lost me in the first few sentences with the bit about the three-part silence. I read another couple of chapters, but I thought the writing was terrible and finally gave up. Now two wights whose tastes and opinions I highly value are gushing about the book. Did I just not push in far enough? Rothfuss seems to be a divisive writer. What do you guys think of the many complaints I've seen that Kvothe is the epitome of a Mary Sue character?

And a happy new year to you, Mister U.

This doesn't surprise me, as I once checked into Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon on your recommendation, but couldn't get into it, nor do I particularly like Stephen King, another of your faves. Methinks we have different tastes. (And I was much taken by William Gibson's Neuromancer, although was disappointed by his Pattern Recognition, so I don't think it's that I don't appreciate post-modern writing. And my taste is in good company, as Ursula LeGuin enjoys the language and the music of Rothfuss's words. As you say, Rothfuss is a divisive writer. But then so was/is Tolkien.

I liked the suspense over the scraeling creature in the first chapter and the characters' different attitudes towards it and the mix of realism with fantasy in the entire world. The elements of medievalism aren't sentimental but hard-nosed. And the theme of names intrigued me. And the travelling troupe. Gypsies still in Europe today are given short shrift (having personally seen how they are treated in Paris and Rome) and I appreciated the depiction of a similar group or tribe. Maybe it's the sense of a post-modern take on a medieval world that I found interesting.

Surely you mean Gary Stu or Marty Stu, Mister U? Here's a test for such characters, which I haven't bothered to work out: Litmus test for Mary Sue characters. Kvothe often is pig-heated and makes bad decisions and his red hair I thought was a reference to his tribe rather than anything Mary Sueish--although who's to say it isn't Rothfuss's joke at such character's expense? Can't remember the colour of his eyes. But then, you're the first I've read of a complaint that he is a Mary Sue character, so I'll put it down to your inimitable wit. But more seriously, I was drawn to figuring out the discrepancies in his condition.

I wonder what our very own Downs expert on Merisu would say?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Surely you mean Gary Stu or Marty Stu, Mister U? Here's a test for such characters, which I haven't bothered to work out: Litmus test for Mary Sue characters.

I haven't even read The Name of the Wind, but I still predict this Kvothe chap *would* fail that particular litmus test, simply by virtue of... being the main character in a fantasy novel. Really, I think the thing is a bit over-the-top.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And a happy new year to you, Mister U.

And to you and your tribe, Bb. Thanks for a restrained reply to a rather annoying post on my part. Apologies to you, Esty, and other Rothfuss fans for my boorishness. I think I shall give Rothfuss another try based on the high marks given by two of my favorite wights. Who knows, I may just end up eating more humble pie for a too-hasty judgment, as happened in the case of a certain sci-fi show. Perhaps I was too over-hyped as well -- Best fantasy since Tolkien! etc. Fantasy books don't generally create enough buzz to even get on my radar these days, but NotW sure did.

Gibson is an interesting writer. Toronto guy. I love his early stuff, but I too have had a harder time getting into his later work. He's a good Twitter follow, though, if you're into such things.