The Grey Havens

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

That's logical.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

Well, there had to have been settlements nearby, but I don't think habitation was the primary purpose of the Havens.


On a different note, going back to Frodo and Sam's motives for leaving, I think what's already been said does apply, but could there have been another factor for those two?

HOME XII has an interesting chapter on lembas, and there it is said that the Eldar did not allow mortals to use that waybread, except under very special circumstances. The Elves had been instructed from the first that if mortals ate too much of it, they would grow weary of mortality and long for "the fields of Aman, to which they cannot come".

Frodo and Sam would seem to have eaten more of the lembas than any other members of the Fellowship, and they ate it alone as well, which was said to increase its virtue. Could that also have increased its other effects, causing Frodo and Sam to yearn for immortal lands?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

I've also wondered if the Grey Haven's might have been a sort of "way station". Based on the description, most of the regualar boats were crafts of at least reasonable size, and so would need a decent size crew* (maybe 10 or so, or double that if elves tire and need to work in shifts). Since all trips from the Grey Havens are essentially one way, that means that each trip needs about a dozen people. Unless elves tend to get the call en-masse, or form alliances where the weary agree to wait until fellow elves get weary before they leave, this would mean that every now and then, an elf might need somewhere to wait till there was a sufficent party for a voyage (this seems not to have happened in the case of the Fellowship, but by that time elves were leaving fairly frequently, so finding five to seven others might not be hard.) The Grey havens might be there for just that purpose, an Elven community that, amongst other things, houses waiting elves until their turn comes up.

* Legolas in all probabilty did not take anyone except Gimli with him, but Legolas built his own boat, and presumably bult a smaller one, that only needed a crew of 2 (or 1 to allow him and Gimli to share the work) Even so, I imagine that, in terms of sheer labor, Legolas and Gimli had a somewhat more arduous and strenuous trip than most to the Grey Havens.

[Elmo]

I think they would have done what Nimrodel and Amroth tried to do and sail to Aman straight from the mouths of the Anduin.

[Guinevere]

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Perhaps the smell of sea-air awakens in Elves some sort of latent affinity that gives them the ability to learn the craft of shipbuilding and the art of sailing quickly.

Maybe it's part of the music of Ulmo, which calls to all the Eldar.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Well, first consider that he had, by that time, been living in Ithilien for close to 120 years - plenty of time to learn the art from Gondorian shipwrights at Pelargir or Dol-Amroth. Having the sea-longing already awakened in him, he would have been anticipating the time when he would finally "follow the longing in his heart" and sail away -- and would have been looking to develop his learning.

Also, when it says "he built a grey ship in Ithilien", it doesn't need to be interpreted that he built it "single-handed". The learning, then, would be developed in his community. And that could well have been assisted by contact with Mithlond in the North (as well has Gondor) for, while Cirdan had left, nothing reports that ALL of the mariners chose to leave at that time.

Similarly, while it suggests that he took Gimli with him, it never says they were the ONLY two persons on the ship.

So, I suggest he took the 120 years to, among other things, develop a community of mariners (drawing on the ship learning of Gondor and Mithlond), build a sea-worthy ship, and (at the end) captain a ship on which Gimli was a passenger (and companion) but which was sailed by a band of Elves led by Legolas.

[Mithalwen]

HAd Cirdan left? I thought he stayed on after the Ringbearers..

Sailing does need practice but we know Elves are quick learners and Legolas had handled small boats all his lfe.

My cousin has been dinghy sailing since early childhood and was a qualified dayskipper in his teens and yachtmaster at 20 He is just 25 an officer in the Royal Navy and qualified to steer warships. And could have been a couple of years sooner had he joined straight from university. There have been a few teenage solo circumnavigators so it isn't impossible to gain a high level of competence young. Yes they have the benefit of technology now but I suspect that the main issue is the right to take the Straight road rather than technical competence.

[Galadriel55]

Plus, Legolas didn't sail the day Aragorn died. After he decided to forsake ME he probably took some sailing lessons, before going.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

HAd Cirdan left? I thought he stayed on after the Ringbearers..

This has been a matter of debate, but for myself, I currently fall on the side of Ciryatan leaving with Gandalf and the other bearers of the Three.