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Old 07-23-2009, 05:18 PM   #41
Aran e-Godhellim
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I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:34 AM   #42
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An ampliation with an Appendix and other things

Hello everybody, what about you fellows?
Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men.

And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent.

What do you think?

Greetings

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Old 06-13-2010, 04:59 AM   #43
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Hello again, connecting with the post above, I want to show you the last structure of the texts, naturally is a traduction from my "original" in spanish.




Translations from the Elvish Vol.1

Silmarillion

Prologue (by me)

Note on pronunciation.
Note on the origins of the texts.

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur

Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.

Genealogies

Maps



Translations from the Elvish Vol.2

Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map


Translations from the Elvish Vol.3

The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of the return of Sauron
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion
Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of the Folk of Durin
Of the Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XIII Of the Quest of Erebor
XIV Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
XV Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Fourth Part
General guide of names

Maps


Greetings.

Last edited by gondowe : 12-07-2011 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Revision
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:37 AM   #44
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Nice to hear you are still active, Gondowe.

Sorry that we can not say the same about our own project.

Concerning the contents of your projected books:
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Anyway, what I observed also is that you would try to bring both versions of the big tales: a short one in the body of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and an extanded one in the collection of the 'Atanatarion'.

Do you not fear that tahs might lead to a big deal of repeatition of one and the same text in all the places were the full versions of th ebig tales break off?

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Old 08-30-2010, 03:16 PM   #45
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Good to see both of you around! I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, Gondowe, and I wish you the best.

I'm hoping to have some time to devote to getting our project moving again in the near future (within the next month or so). If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:57 AM   #46
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Quote:
If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!
I promise to do so.

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Old 09-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #47
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Hello Findegil and Aiwendil

Nice to read you again, we are there till the end.

Thank you for about my mother, the battle against the cancer (send by Morgoth) was very hard.

Findegil wrote.
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Its included as the last Appendix of Volume one. E Yenonotie. The Tale of Years.

About the other matter, really its a case of repeatition, but I shortened anyway lots of it, (its a real pity that you cannot read it for being in spanish, to compare).

Anyway I feel fine with it, because its the most approached to the knowed final structure projects of the professor, if Tolkien wanted to repeat the story, amen ( evidently with other words). But we only have what we have.

What do you think about the matter of Eol in the post above.

Greetings
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:46 AM   #48
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Execuse me for answering so late, Gondowe!

I had to re-read a bit to make up my mind about Eöl an your question. For me the note: 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point' is a kind of call back for the first sentence of the earlier note ('Eöl should not be ...'). It is hard to bring all different story into order in ones mind. For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all.

I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack.

That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'.

That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear.

In the end it all will come down to close examination of the time when all these notes were written. I had no time to do that right now. So it has to wait for some other kind soul.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:53 AM   #49
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Hello, Findegil

This discussion can serve you for preparation when you arrive at the Tale of Aredhel and Eöl and Maeglin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post

For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all.

I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack.
Findegil
I only can say that its my opinion too, but (I think that) the return to the Teleri side was later and in this case must be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'.

That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear.
Findegil
In this matter I had adopted a diplomatical attitude. I still think what wrote in earlier posts and will not say again, but in the text I don´t identify in any case imin, Tata and Enel with Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, the only manifiest alussion is that of the lammas that Ingwë war the fisrt to awake, the reader will extract his proper conclusions.

Greetings.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:09 AM   #50
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By the way, I have revised another point of divergence between yours and my text, mentioned in another post and want to share with you. That of the mention of a Third elder son of Orodreth. I stiil think he can be suitable for the story (better with other name suggested by Tolkien), but I had named him Haldir as the later form Tolkien adopted, and I had not repared (inexplicably) in the elf of Lorien in TLotR, so I changed it by Halmir, the earlier name.
So the only repeated elven name would be the "imposible to change" Rumil.

Greetings
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:09 AM   #51
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What about Galdor and Legolas? Or are they out of your version of the Fall of Gondolin? Or are you onmy side, when I argue that both of them could be the same person in Gondolin and Imladris?

What bothers me about Halmir/Haldir son of Orodreth is that in part at least the leader of Brethil with a very similar name took ofer the part in the story that this son of Orodreth has. => Slain by Orks when barring the way to Nargothrond at a similar time. Okay the death of a Man would not embitter Orodreth that much even so he might have been a close ally, which is unlikley considering the policy of secrecy. But still it seems to be to much repetition. And it is again a repetition when Finduilas the daughter is slain a similar cruel way by the orks later on in the story.

About Eöl: Yes the discussion will be helpful for sure. I agree that it is dificult to stick to idea of Eöl being of Tatyarin origin. But as said already he proberbly has a mixed origin with a strong Tatyarin-Avari strain. But here again it is the information combiner that speaks. And that side of myself the one that must restriced by others in our project to secure some succes at all.

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Old 09-30-2010, 07:21 AM   #52
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In the case of Legolas/Galdor, at the beggining of this thread I said that had been replaced Legolas by Galdor in the Fall of Gondolin, because I think Legonas must not be the same as in TLotR but Galdor can be the same, as Glorfindel.

In the matter of the repetition, I agree with you that a man and an elf with the same name in the same period is a bit shocking, but we have not other name from Tolkien himself. In other way it could be rare that an elf take a name of a man (like Haldir of Lothlorien), I think in every case is inversely.

A similar dead of Finduilas and Halmir as brothers, I think can even reinforce the narrative.

Greetings

Last edited by gondowe : 09-30-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:38 AM   #53
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Hello again fellows, a days ago I have updated in the post above the structure of chapters in the Vols 1 and 2 of my version. Apart of other minor changes, the major was the inclusion of the story of Eärendil in the last tale of the Atanatarion.

I decided to do it because follow your version I did take the decision of include verse material, that makes an elongation of the text.

To the fragment of the lay of Eärendel (that I located at Nan-tathren ) and the Horns of Ylmir, after; and at the mention of the Sleeper of the Tower of Pearl, I added The happy mariners.

And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.

In my concept of a book for the QS, (a resume of the tales), and another for the Atanatarion, the story must end with the Raising of the Star, and the Great end of the First age, must belong only to the QS.
If you think seeing my concept, what do you think?

Greetings
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:28 AM   #54
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Nice to read from you again Gondowe!

'The happy Mariners' did not make it into our version, because we thought that the tale told in it must come from a later age. Look at this thread for the discussion we had about that poem. Especially my post 91, were I confinced myself that the happy mariniers are Teleri-Elves sailing from Eldamar to the east to fill their ship with 'oriental sparks' and encounter the lonely singer in the tower of pearl when they are on their way back to Eldamar.

Gondowe wrote:
Quote:
And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.
These are interristing additions. I will have to look depper into what these poems say. But it is worth a look for sure.

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Old 03-12-2011, 05:14 AM   #55
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Hello Findegil, ok, first of all, in my opinion, its only a song , not necessarily "canonically real or perfect".
But apart for the "inexplicably" mention of Gondobar, I don't see anything that gives me the impression that they go to the east. They go to the land of the Two Trees, and the orient fire is of the sun from the east in the rear of the ship. (Of course is an oppinion, a mode of see, of understand the song).

Of course we can omit the verse of Gondobar, but for example, a very nice option for me, is that we can change Gondobar for Eressëa, that is the place in what I always think when read the allusion of Gondobar. But these changes are easier for me that the texts in Spanish have not rhyme. Could you combine the older and the last versions of the poem?

....Thus they escaped their enchantment.

I know a window in a Western tower
......
beyond the country of the shining Trees.


For at last Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows.....


Greetings

Last edited by gondowe : 03-13-2011 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:56 AM   #56
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Again, with the addition of a Prologue written by me (in what I cited and gave thanks to this forum), I have updated the chapter structure of the whole work. Previously I had included in a part of general notes, every text I had edited apart, like the texts of the Unfinished Tales, and things like those. Now I have to said that with this three volumes and The Hobbit and TLOTR, the very whole, whole "historical" material written by Tolkien, is included in a continuum of five books. Now it only rests future modifications derived from discussions of this forum, and future publications of new material.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:17 PM   #57
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Hello fellows again, I have been father for second time on October 27th, and I have been very busy. With two childes at home, we have no time to be bored. And it will be for time, but I´ll try to collaborate in the measure I could.

For the moment in the few times I had and could, I finished (naturally for the moment) the whole project of the Red Book, adapting the texts of the Hobbit and TLOTR, in one volume (changing the three first chapters of the first one for those written in the 60s and rejected (published in The History of the Hobbit)), and elaborate a "fifth volume with the hobbit material from the Appendix of TLOTR, with the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.
With that I have a sort of "Compilation from the copy of Findegil of Gondor of the Thain´s Book".

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