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Old 04-19-2012, 06:52 AM   #1
Formendacil
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I think it's worth emphasising the symbolism of the names on the list. Even from the way Imrahil talks about it, I think it's clear that a big part of the reason Sauron will take notice of the names, specifically, of those marching on the Black Gate is because of what they stand for, that is, what they symbolise, not necessarily what actual force they command.

With regards to the Dúnedain of the North, they are a reminder that Sauron failed in Eriador. While Arthedain is no more, neither is Angmar; and of the two, Arthedain was the one that left behind survivors--left behind an institution in fact. Admittedly, the North-kingdom was no longer a military threat to Sauron's takeover of Middle-earth, but their continued survival was a sign that Sauron, just like the good guys, had been fighting "The Long Defeat" without complete success.

What is more, I agree with Uruk's Bane that Sauron probably knew about the existence of the Rangers. After all, they'd been thwarting his wolves and goblins in Eriador for centuries (take note of all the premature deaths noted among Aragorn's ancestors), and these incursions must have had at least some direction from Sauron during his time as Necromancer.

With that in mind, consider what Sauron must have thought when the Dúnedain of the North made their reappearance in the broader world in the immediate wake of his discovery that Isildur still had an Heir. Aragorn's appearance would have made the very existence of the Rangers go from being an irritation in the North to a symbolic slap in the face of three millennia of planning. If they were to march on the Morannon and all be slaughtered, Sauron would be able to destroy more than just an annoyance, he'd be able to effect a massive symbolic coup.

On a similar note, I think the March on the Morannon must have reminded Sauron of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men--not something he would want to remember. Admittedly, the number of Elves in this new alliance was only three if you count the Sons of Elrond, but the presence of the Sons of Elrond and the Northern Dúnedain in battle with his enemies of the South represented the alliance of their respective lands. This would serve as a reminder of Sauron's failure to divide his enemies against him, and would also serve as a reminder of past failures. After all, the last time that Gondor and Arnor fought together, the Witch-king's armies were destroyed, and the time before that was the Last Alliance.

Sauron, whose calculated cunning was very great, would have been extremely unlikely, in my opinion, to have ignored the symbolic victory the chance to wipe out these enemies afforded him.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Formendacil View Post
Sauron, whose calculated cunning was very great, would have been extremely unlikely, in my opinion, to have ignored the symbolic victory the chance to wipe out these enemies afforded him.
And at the same time recognized the threat of a severe symbolic loss, even if the Rangers et al would gain little. That would be part of the foundation of his fears. (other parts including, of course, that all of a sudden Isildur still has an heir, that this heir has a stronger willpower than Sauron, and that he's coming with the Broken Sword in hand - another symbolic relic).
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:50 PM   #3
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Denethor ? Although he was driven mad by what he saw with the Palantir, he was "too great to be subdued" according to Gandalf.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:27 AM   #4
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I think the 30 or so Dunedain would be worthy to be added on that list because they are a remnant of the Numenoreans of the north which were not seen that frequently in the Third age. Perhaps the rarity of seeing one adds to the splendor when an ordinary Man or an orc sees them.
I wouldn't say that Saruman would be worth a thousand mail clad knights because he really did not contribute anything in the war of the ring although he did in the effort against Sauron in Dol Guldur. Radagast I would not also put in the list. The Blue Wizards I'm not sure of. Perhaps they might have been in the east, busy stirring rebellions among the inhabitants of Rhun? Perhaps the efforts of the blue wizard prevented prevented Sauron from having more Easterlings in his army. I don't know.
The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.



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Old 05-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #5
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Denethor ? Although he was driven mad by what he saw with the Palantir, he was "too great to be subdued" according to Gandalf.
Granted one could say irrelevant since Denethor was in fact dead by the time Aragorn leads his host to the Black Gate, but I have a touch of pity for the man.

I agree about Denethor, but in a different way. He was still "mail-clad" during the Siege of Gondor, but I wouldn't call him a knight in the sense of a warrior. Since, Denethor makes clear to Gandalf he believes as Gondor's leader he would be more effective doing so from his seat (as Sauron sits back in his tower to "lead."):

Quote:
Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."~The Siege of Gondor
Having said this, Denethor still had a strong and capable will (as proven in his ability to use the palantir). He was in fact the leader of Sauron's most hated enemy, and as such, Sauron feared him. Unfinished Tales (The Palantiri) notes that Sauron had no servant with a strong enough will to match Denethor's, and thus it is why Sauron himself has to use the palantir. Once Sauron discovers Denethor is using the palantir in Minas Tirith, he discovers an opportunity, as Gandalf puts it:

Quote:
"Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work."~The Pyre of Denethor
So dead by this time in the story, and not a front-line leader. But for all his faults, Denethor arguably had the strongest will of the men of Gondor, and was a big enough concern to Sauron that Sauron himself had to use the palantir to make his "strike at the heart" of Minas Tirith.

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Originally Posted by Glorthelion View Post
The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.
Regarding Thranduil, I agree that since he's noted as leading the Elven host at the battle of Five Armies he in fact fought in it. As I mentioned with Denethor above, there were certainly leaders who did not lead their armies at the front, but preferred using others (namely Sauron and Denethor). However, rarely would Denethor and Sauron be mentioned as "leading" during a battle. In Gondor's case, it's normally whoever the lord was of the certain fiefdom.

For example, Imrahil is mentioned when Tolkien wants to talk about the knights of Dol Amroth during the Siege of Gondor. Or Forlong, when it is the men he brought from Lossarnach. So, the fact that Thranduil is the Elven-King, and is the leader of the Elven host at the Battle of Five Armies, is I think sufficient enough to conclude he was present and fought in the battle. If not, then he definitely fought during the Last Alliance. His father, Oropher, was the leader of the Mirkwood elves at the time, but dies during the battle and Thranduil is specifically mentioned as leading the surviving Elves back to Mirkwood. (Basically, I'm just trying to get at, Thranduil has been an established and present name in battles).
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:45 AM   #6
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Pretty sure that Thanduil was involved in the big battle at the end of the Second Age on Dagorland.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:25 AM   #7
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I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south. I think both those Dunedain are pretty similar as pertains to their stature among men of that day. Faramir was greater than any man of Rohan and the only people in the south kingdom who were like him were his father and Imrahil. I believe in Gondor in some houses in Gondor the bloodlines were more pure than in others like in the Stewards house and in the nobles of Dol Amroth.

If I had to add others to the list not with that party of course all of the Noldor left in ME, like Galadriel and Glorfindel, of men I can only choose the Dunedain, liike Faramir. Faramir appears to be a figure like unto Aragorn on a lesser level. Gandalf says of Faramir and his father, "He is not as other men of this time,... by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir...He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off." [RotK, p. 33]
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