Which Names Were Worth "1,000 Mail-Clad Knights?

[Glorthelion]

I think the 30 or so Dunedain would be worthy to be added on that list because they are a remnant of the Numenoreans of the north which were not seen that frequently in the Third age. Perhaps the rarity of seeing one adds to the splendor when an ordinary Man or an orc sees them.
I wouldn't say that Saruman would be worth a thousand mail clad knights because he really did not contribute anything in the war of the ring although he did in the effort against Sauron in Dol Guldur. Radagast I would not also put in the list. The Blue Wizards I'm not sure of. Perhaps they might have been in the east, busy stirring rebellions among the inhabitants of Rhun? Perhaps the efforts of the blue wizard prevented prevented Sauron from having more Easterlings in his army. I don't know.
The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.



Glorthelion

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Denethor ? Although he was driven mad by what he saw with the Palantir, he was "too great to be subdued" according to Gandalf.

Granted one could say irrelevant since Denethor was in fact dead by the time Aragorn leads his host to the Black Gate, but I have a touch of pity for the man.

I agree about Denethor, but in a different way. He was still "mail-clad" during the Siege of Gondor, but I wouldn't call him a knight in the sense of a warrior. Since, Denethor makes clear to Gandalf he believes as Gondor's leader he would be more effective doing so from his seat (as Sauron sits back in his tower to "lead."):

Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."~The Siege of Gondor

Having said this, Denethor still had a strong and capable will (as proven in his ability to use the palantir). He was in fact the leader of Sauron's most hated enemy, and as such, Sauron feared him. Unfinished Tales (The Palantiri) notes that Sauron had no servant with a strong enough will to match Denethor's, and thus it is why Sauron himself has to use the palantir. Once Sauron discovers Denethor is using the palantir in Minas Tirith, he discovers an opportunity, as Gandalf puts it:

"Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work."~The Pyre of Denethor

So dead by this time in the story, and not a front-line leader. But for all his faults, Denethor arguably had the strongest will of the men of Gondor, and was a big enough concern to Sauron that Sauron himself had to use the palantir to make his "strike at the heart" of Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Glorthelion

The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.

Regarding Thranduil, I agree that since he's noted as leading the Elven host at the battle of Five Armies he in fact fought in it. As I mentioned with Denethor above, there were certainly leaders who did not lead their armies at the front, but preferred using others (namely Sauron and Denethor). However, rarely would Denethor and Sauron be mentioned as "leading" during a battle. In Gondor's case, it's normally whoever the lord was of the certain fiefdom.

For example, Imrahil is mentioned when Tolkien wants to talk about the knights of Dol Amroth during the Siege of Gondor. Or Forlong, when it is the men he brought from Lossarnach. So, the fact that Thranduil is the Elven-King, and is the leader of the Elven host at the Battle of Five Armies, is I think sufficient enough to conclude he was present and fought in the battle. If not, then he definitely fought during the Last Alliance. His father, Oropher, was the leader of the Mirkwood elves at the time, but dies during the battle and Thranduil is specifically mentioned as leading the surviving Elves back to Mirkwood. (Basically, I'm just trying to get at, Thranduil has been an established and present name in battles).

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Pretty sure that Thanduil was involved in the big battle at the end of the Second Age on Dagorland.

[Belegorn]

I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south. I think both those Dunedain are pretty similar as pertains to their stature among men of that day. Faramir was greater than any man of Rohan and the only people in the south kingdom who were like him were his father and Imrahil. I believe in Gondor in some houses in Gondor the bloodlines were more pure than in others like in the Stewards house and in the nobles of Dol Amroth.

If I had to add others to the list not with that party of course all of the Noldor left in ME, like Galadriel and Glorfindel, of men I can only choose the Dunedain, liike Faramir. Faramir appears to be a figure like unto Aragorn on a lesser level. Gandalf says of Faramir and his father, "He is not as other men of this time,... by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir...He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off." [RotK, p. 33]

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south...

Especially considering that Gandalf's statement about "Names worth ..." deals more with Sauron's perception that with who could actually fight with the force of 1000 knights.

Thus, for example, we need not consider the actual abilities of, say, Legolas & Gimli but rather ask whether they had established a sufficient reputation IN SAURON'S PERCEPTION that he would think they were that valuable. Thus, about all that Sauron would have known (if that) was that they survived Moria (with G's help); were in in the company of the Ring (as were several small Hobbits); survived the Hornburg (if he even knew they were there) and survived Pellenor.

Aragorn, on the other hand, was Isuldur's heir, possessed the sword that robbed S of his Ring, and had already wrested control of the Orthanc stone from Sauron in direct, mental confrontation !! And Gandalf had been dogging Sauron's heels for over a thousand years (closer to two thousand years - ever since he began to stir again).

About the only other "NAMES" (ie, people who had made names for themselves which Sauron would know) who were there were Imrahil & Eomer. Eomer "might" be considered simply by virtue of being King of the Mark - and, so, able to command the actions of thousands of warriers who helped defeat him on the Pellenor. Imrahil "might" be considered by virtue of being a chief prince and knight of Gondor.

Otherwise, I agree that the Dunedain (as a group) were not a "Name" (ie, a single person to be feared) any more than the armies of Gondor or the Mark. They were important as a group, but none of them were even given names in the story (Halbarad had already died) so it seems unlikely Sauron would or could have looked and said "Oh no! That's Elminar! We need to watch him!!!"

So, I think Belegorn has the right of it - with the possible consideration of Eomer & Imrahil being included (in Sauron's reckoning) by virtue of their ranks and offices.

[Mumriken]

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

At the end of the third age he was a weakling, fled Dol Guldur when the white council approached him. It's true that unlike the istaris he could use his power fully. But most of that power he poured into his ring. So without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker. His strength lies in his armies and ability to control people with fear. He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

Many would easily in a contest of power beat Sauron to the ground. As for what people he feared could actually win over his army. I think he was sure of winning, at that last battle at the black gate he feared nothing.

[Belegorn]

Mumriken I have to disagree with your assertion that Sauron, "is not as powerful as some think" because, "without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker". This is false as far as I am aware. While Sauron donned the Ring his power was increased in ME but he still had his power even if he did not wear it. Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, "While he wore it his power on earth was actually enhanced, But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place." Besides we even have Gandalf admitting when he returned as Gandalf the White, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TT, p. 123]

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

Don't blame us, blame Mr. Tolkien:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.~Letter 246

In the 3rd Age, it can be argued Gandalf may have been able to overthrow Sauron (only if Gandalf attempted to master the Ring), but as is clear, it is only Gandalf who "might be expected to master him." Your list of others is a ton and ton of speculation.

Power and peril is a vague and general term in LOTR. It doesn't have clearly defined boundaries and meaning "since Gandalf is more powerful than Aragorn, Gandalf would beat Aragorn in a fight." Many times there are certain circumstances and situations which require specific "powers" (or magic, you might say) which allow for events to play out the way they do. For example, The Witch-King was a far more powerful and dangerous foe then Eowyn and Merry. But Merry carried an enchanted blade, wound with spells specifically designed to be the bane of the Witch-King, and when Merry snuck in a wound with the blade, this broke the Witch-King's power, allowing Eowyn to defeat him.

Or we see Gandalf struggling with opening the door in Moria. He tries every opening spell he knows...and he knows a ton of spells. Yet, as powerful as the spells might be, the door wouldn't open. All Gandalf had to do was follow the directions haha..."speak friend and enter." Anyway, Moria's door could not be opened by sheer power or Gandalf's knowledge of spells, but simply by knowing the answer to a riddle. Sauron rightfully feared Aragorn, a descendant of his most hated enemy, if Aragorn had the Ring. This however does not equate to Aragorn having a greater innate power to Sauron.

As far as Sauron's battle in the Last Alliance and defeat there...it's actually not Isildur who overthrows Sauron. The Eldar and Edain had been laying siege to Barad-dur for 7 years and Barad-dur was not going to be conquered until the Ring was destroyed. Sauron decides to come out and challenge both Elendil and Gil-galad in combat. And it is Elendil and Gil-Galad (together) who overthrow Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad also die in this battle, and while Sauron is laying beaten on the ground, Isildur cuts the Ring off to claim as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

But isn't the point of this thread about Gandalf's statement that "There are names **HERE** which are worth..." and discussing which names he might have been thinking of? He didn't say "there are names in middle earth", but "names HERE".

Then the only names he could consider would be of those who were actually **HERE** (ie, with him at the last debate or, perhaps, in the vicinity of Minas Tirith and available to march with the host to the Black Gate.

Of the names you listed, only Gandalf and Aragorn were there and available - and I think we all agree those two names would be included.