![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
![]() |
#1 | ||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
I think you are misinterpreting the word "proper", or at least I never understood it that way. Granted, English is not my native language, but I have always thought that "proper" here means simply "characteristic", i.e. the stone that belongs to it, you can identify it that way. Let's say, Vilya has a sapphire in it. That is its "proper" gem - in latin, "proprius" means something like "characteristic" or "distinctive". Even the English word "propriety" does not denote something "correct", but simply something that belongs to someone. So it was a stone that belonged to that Ring, that is what I believe Gandalf meant, nothing more, nothing less. Quote:
And just for the record, I do not think Radagast needed any Ring for his communication with the animals (nor for his "fall from duty". He loved animals even without any Ring). On top of everything, I find Radagast such a "natural" person that I would really find it awkward for him to mess around with any Rings... Quote:
Quote:
Which is basically what I meant by this Control-Enhancement difference, as radagastly pointed out: Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Dead Serious
|
![]()
The question of the gems proper to the Great Rings makes me think about the exception to that rule, the One Ring, and that makes me think about a couple of things that are only tenuously related to the discussion of the Lesser Rings--nonetheless, it is fun to speculate.
What crops up in my mind is this: in HoME X, aptly titled Morgoth's Ring, there is an essay where Tolkien compares Melkor's diffusion of his own power into the whole matter of Arda to Sauron's infusion of his power into the Ring, and Tolkien says that Sauron specifically used gold in the creation of the One Ring because it had, as an element or ore, particularly high amounts of Melkor-ness. Silver, on the other hand, is singled out as being one of the purest metals (I would speculate that, in a like manner, water could be assumed to be one of the purest elements of Arda's physical matter, and maybe the air of Manwë). In addition to this is the idea that has been brought up here that the gemstones of the Great Rings might be significant. The Sapphire connection to Manwë in Vilya seems especially apt, and I wonder if it's not too much of a stretch to hope for a diamond-Elbereth connection for Nenya (after all, Galadriel is very much a Varda-figure in The Lord of the Rings). This leaves Narya, and while I can make no obvious connection between it and one of the Valar, its red stone nonetheless makes a fairly close connection to Gandalf's use of it as "kindling" (i.e. lighting a fire--fires being red). The connection here that I would put forward--as a theory and as nothing but a theory--is that the gemstones in the Great Rings have something of an analogy to the use of gold in the One Ring. What precisely they *DO* is beyond me to explain, or how they do it, but the "magicks" of the Elves are, as has already been pointed out in this thread, an Art--and I would lean on that word a bit to suggest that an Art suggests that it is a Craft (albeit one that can be done well according to the gift of the craftsman), which is something that can be made with materials--and although there is a lot of emphasis on the craftsmanship of Celebrimbor, nothing is said in the text about the significance of his materials. What I am propounding, therefore, is a suggestion that what sets apart the Lesser Rings from the Great Rings is, in part, their different materials--or that in the Great Rings the natural potencies of the gems were unlocked by a combination of the Ring-Control/Enhancement (as it has been suggested here) already found in the Lesser Rings, not simply working on the user, but allowing him/her to access further power of Arda itself, as most appropriate to the gem. The thing about this speculative schema that appeals to me is that it makes a connection between the One Ring and the other Great Rings that allows the lesser Rings to have been a purely Elven Art--indeed, it is easy to see Ring-making as an Eregion reinvention of something the Noldor did in Valinor. The idea that the gems have "innate powers" or what-have-you sits a bit uncomfortably with me, seeming not quite-Middle-earth, but I console myself with the Noldor were always gem-makers, and although the Silmarils are the gems par excellence that they made, it is not impossible that the lesser gems might have had a lesser power just as they had a lesser lustre. In this conception, the Lesser Rings may well have had gems--it is simply that the gems would not have been of any extra benefit compared to an unadorned Lesser Ring. It is the gems specifically then, in the Great Rings, that allowed the ringbearer great power over nature--but because they were opened up to tap into this "matter of Arda" power, Sauron's One Ring, forged of gold specifically to tap into the Melkor-element in the matter of Arda, was able to get in and control the other ringbearers. Having said all that, I realise it's all unprovable, but hopefully it will be seen as somewhat plausible--or, at the very least, as highlighting an element or two of the Rings that can bear a touch more scrutiny.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | |||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
Sapphire = protection, foresight, prophetic wisdom (all quite apt for Elrond, and maybe Manwe) Diamond = This seems to have a wider range of symbols. But for the most part, the hardness of a diamond symbolizes great strength, but also clarity and beauty (more specifically enhancing relationships since diamonds have been adopted as the rock you put into engagement rings) Ruby = vitality, courage, confidence, passion. Which all seem fitting with the reasons Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf: Quote:
I think it's important to keep in mind, that the "lesser rings" are only comparitively lesser, because of the Rings of Power. In a world without the great Rings of Power, I think the lesser rings would still be objects of power and "magic." Not that anyone is making the argument the lesser rings were useless scrap metal, but just keeping in mind the only reason they seem to be called "lesser" is to compare and separate them from the 19 Rings. In the mind of say Sauron (and at a later point Saruman), the lesser rings would be "toys" and "trifles" because they're not important to their ultimate goal of subjugation. These rings are insignificant, but it's interesting to me that Gandalf still appears to find ALL rings of power dangerous. As much as I mentioned above about the positive symbols of the gems in the Elven rings, I think all gemstones carry baggage too. I mean the history of diamonds is full of exploitation, bloodshed, and negative baggage. All the Rings of Power (even the Elven Rings) were dangerous, if used uncarefully. My interpretation has always been, the Elven bearers use their Rings for good, but also only as a necessity (I believe they conceal them when Sauron possesses the One, yes)? So, it's more about the Elves ability to limit how they use their Rings, where the Dwarves and Men greedily hoarded wealth and power, to the point where it consumed Men to slavery and caused a lot of difficulties for the Dwarves. For as Gandalf says: Quote:
Obviously the lesser rings are not as powerful as the 19 Rings. However, if we think, the reason they're termed "lesser rings" is out of necessity to separate them from the 19 Rings, and therefor these lesser rings are also "Rings of Power," in their own respect, we can probably see why Gandalf thought all these rings were dangerous, depending upon the strength of will in the ring-bearer.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 05-31-2012 at 09:30 AM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
![]() ![]() |
Sorry, I haven't read every post.
Has anyone mentioned the symbolism of the shape of a ring? A circle, it binds the finger. It holds the ring-bearer prisoner, symbolically. This suggests to me that a ring as a crafted Elvish item holds a different kind of power by virtue of being a ring, as opposed to lembas, elven rope, elven cloaks, silmarilli, phials, or what have you. That Elves made many items other than rings, as exampled above, bespeaks to me the significance and symbolism of the shape itself. Not only in shape, but think of the ring's prominence in (at least western) human culture. It is the symbol of the promises/vows binding two people together in marriage. Thus, culturally, rings are linked to bondage, whether willing or forced. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
That Arvedui felt the need to clarify that that particular ring held no power seems significant. Did he assume the Snowmen knew of the Rings of Power? Or were indeed the 'lesser' rings that did have special properties commonly known to Men?
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
![]() |
diamonds are forever
Originally posted by Lalwendë:
Quote:
Quote:
It may also be significant that it specifies "the smiths" of Eregion, rather than "the elves" of Eregion. Perhaps these smiths were already making rings with some kind of power, or "magic" even before Sauron showed up. Maybe they did invent the idea after all, and Sauron merely guided their development in a direction of his choosing. Legate of Amon Lanc: (just a little side note) Quote:
Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc: Quote:
Quote:
So when making a ring do you use gold? or silver? or mithril or platinum or iron? Copper or brass or bronze or lead? Pure metal or alloy? Do you set it with diamond or ruby or saphire or emerald or maybe nothing at all? It becomes a whole alchemical world. And then then there is the personality of the ring-smith to consider. Sauron infused a part of himself into the One Ring. Celebrimbor did the same with the three, so we can guess that was part of the process. Two different ring-smiths could each make a ring that performed essentially the same kind of charm or effect, but one might need to use mithril and the other needed gold? And how much more commitment from these Elven-smiths would be required as this craft transitioned from rings of "enhancement" to rings of "control?" Originally posted by littlemanpoet: Quote:
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | ||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
I like the idea that Sauron came to Eregion in part to learn and improve on his own ring lore and ring making skills. Maybe watching how these items were made and thus working out how he might make one which surpassed all others. It fits nicely (in a metaphorical sense certainly, and perhaps more) with the appearance of the One Ring, which is a plain gold which only reveals its secret once plunged into fire. Quote:
On Morgoth, from Osanwe-Kenta: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
This is, I would say, Gandalf's normal approach, and it makes him quite different from Saruman. Whereas Gandalf approaches such things with as little pride as possible, Saruman basically says "oooh, something I can use--let me test it to the fullness of its abilities, without regard for the possible consequences." All of which is to say: I agree with lalwendë that a caution from Gandalf about the dangers of a "trifle" suggest that something like the Lesser Rings weren't so much evil as potentially dangerous--like, for example, a teenager with a motorcycle.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Frodo can see the Riders, obviously, and Glorfindel - who possesses something extra in his 'fea' because he has been across the Sea. What are the 'small shadowy forms waving flames'? Perhaps this is why Galadriel would be such an incredibly powerful leader if she had taken the One ring - if she also possesses the same intensity of Light that Glorfindel does, then if she was in control of Sauron's ring then she would be truly terrifying. This also brings me back to the discussion about 'proper' stones in the Elven rings as Nenya has the 'white' stone. It seems to possess qualities not just of water but also of Light. So it was not just the 'proper' stone for the ring, but also the correct/proper stone for Galadriel.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
![]() |
Originally posted by Lalwende:
Quote:
Originally posted by Formendacil: Quote:
Originally posted by Formendacil: Quote:
Lalwende: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
|||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |