The Lesser Rings

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In the mind of say Sauron (and at a later point Saruman), the lesser rings would be "toys" and "trifles" because they're not important to their ultimate goal of subjugation. These rings are insignificant, but it's interesting to me that Gandalf still appears to find ALL rings of power dangerous.

There's that phrase which Gandalf uses though: "to my mind", which suggests to me that this fear of what powers other rings may possess is a fear that Gandalf knows he is either alone or in a minority with. It may be that Gandalf is more than a bit spooked having direct experience of watching what use of the One Ring does to someone, and is therefore more worried than other are. The question here is whether he is justified in his caution. But he knows it's his opinion, and not a universal truth.

Originally Posted by radagastly

So three-hundred years of instruction preceded the beginning of the work on the Great Rings which took another hundred years to complete, before Sauron forged the One to trap them. I think that in three-hundred years many lesser rings, or practice rings, were made under Sauron's tutelage and likely had ever improved skill and ever increasing power and scope.

It may also be significant that it specifies "the smiths" of Eregion, rather than "the elves" of Eregion. Perhaps these smiths were already making rings with some kind of power, or "magic" even before Sauron showed up. Maybe they did invent the idea after all, and Sauron merely guided their development in a direction of his choosing.

I agree, given that expansive time frame, it's possible that some of these 'essays' might have been more powerful than expected. How long would it take to craft a ring (maybe the answer is similar to 'how long is a piece of string...')? Would a smith become suspicious should a ring, once made, possess unpleasant or dangerous properties?

I like the idea that Sauron came to Eregion in part to learn and improve on his own ring lore and ring making skills. Maybe watching how these items were made and thus working out how he might make one which surpassed all others. It fits nicely (in a metaphorical sense certainly, and perhaps more) with the appearance of the One Ring, which is a plain gold which only reveals its secret once plunged into fire.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Not only in shape, but think of the ring's prominence in (at least western) human culture. It is the symbol of the promises/vows binding two people together in marriage. Thus, culturally, rings are linked to bondage, whether willing or forced.

And building from this, note how the Nine and the One seem to 'break' the bonds set by Eru on the body and spirit (hroa and fea) of Men in particular. With the Nine, the hroa fades away and with the One it temporarily disappears entirely. I'm still convinced, from everything I've read, that the way these rings work is by exposing the fea and thus the minds of Men who wear them to Sauron. The Elven rings work in a similar but more subtle and appropriate way.

On Morgoth, from Osanwe-Kenta:

For he would come by stealth to a mind open and unwary, hoping to learn some part of its thought before it closed, and still more to implant in it his own thought, to deceive it and win it to his friendship.

And a little something on Sauron:

his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance

Again, this is a quote from Osanwe-Kenta:

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

"the lesser rings" - what does Tolkien mean, exactly, here?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There's that phrase which Gandalf uses though: "to my mind", which suggests to me that this fear of what powers other rings may possess is a fear that Gandalf knows he is either alone or in a minority with. It may be that Gandalf is more than a bit spooked having direct experience of watching what use of the One Ring does to someone, and is therefore more worried than other are. The question here is whether he is justified in his caution. But he knows it's his opinion, and not a universal truth.

This would be consistent with Gandalf's opinions about other things--the palantíri come to mind. Tolkien is quite clear in the essay on them in Unfinished Tales that Denethor, as Steward, had full right to use the Anor-stone, and that Aragorn had the same to use the Orthanc-stone; nonetheless, Gandalf sees it as highly dangerous to do so, and even cautions Aragorn (his closest collaborator in many respects, and possibly the Man he trusts most) about doing so.

This is, I would say, Gandalf's normal approach, and it makes him quite different from Saruman. Whereas Gandalf approaches such things with as little pride as possible, Saruman basically says "oooh, something I can use--let me test it to the fullness of its abilities, without regard for the possible consequences."

All of which is to say: I agree with lalwendë that a caution from Gandalf about the dangers of a "trifle" suggest that something like the Lesser Rings weren't so much evil as potentially dangerous--like, for example, a teenager with a motorcycle.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This is, I would say, Gandalf's normal approach, and it makes him quite different from Saruman. Whereas Gandalf approaches such things with as little pride as possible, Saruman basically says "oooh, something I can use--let me test it to the fullness of its abilities, without regard for the possible consequences."

All of which is to say: I agree with lalwendë that a caution from Gandalf about the dangers of a "trifle" suggest that something like the Lesser Rings weren't so much evil as potentially dangerous--like, for example, a teenager with a motorcycle.

Originally Posted by radagastly

It's possible his own ring gave him some extra insight on the matter, I suppose. We never hear Elrond's or Galadriel's opinions to compare it to, but I suspect you're right. Gandalf seems to do an awful lot of fretting. Maybe that's how he was able to stay true to his mission.

And to be fair on Saruman, he is one of Aule's people, so I'd expect him to find objects and fiddle with them to see what they can do. Maybe if he had not used the Palantir quite so much, he would have come up with some interesting solutions to the problems of Middle-earth. Gandalf is quite the opposite - and much of the story of Lord of the Rings comprises of people doing things that Gandalf would rather they didn't do.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Somewhere later (I'm sorry, I forget where, and I can't seem to find it.) Frodo is told that this shining figure was Glorfindel as he appears on the other side because he came from over the sea, and was filled with the memory of the Undying Lands and I think that this memory never faded from those who ever once beheld it. I wonder if this is why Sauron was said the fear Galadriel. She was the only Elf left of any import to Sauron who had come from across the sea. Just a side-note I guess, perhaps a question for another thread, though it does fit in with your assessment of how the Great Rings worked. Perhaps the lesser rings provided a similar, though more limited, insight.

Good find!

Frodo can see the Riders, obviously, and Glorfindel - who possesses something extra in his 'fea' because he has been across the Sea. What are the 'small shadowy forms waving flames'?

Perhaps this is why Galadriel would be such an incredibly powerful leader if she had taken the One ring - if she also possesses the same intensity of Light that Glorfindel does, then if she was in control of Sauron's ring then she would be truly terrifying. This also brings me back to the discussion about 'proper' stones in the Elven rings as Nenya has the 'white' stone. It seems to possess qualities not just of water but also of Light. So it was not just the 'proper' stone for the ring, but also the correct/proper stone for Galadriel.

[radagastly]

What are the 'small shadowy forms waving flames'?

I believe the text (which I still can't find) explains them to be Aragorn and the Hobbits, following Glorfindel's lead to drive the Nazgul into the flood.

Perhaps this is why Galadriel would be such an incredibly powerful leader if she had taken the One ring - if she also possesses the same intensity of Light that Glorfindel does, then if she was in control of Sauron's ring then she would be truly terrifying. This also brings me back to the discussion about 'proper' stones in the Elven rings as Nenya has the 'white' stone. It seems to possess qualities not just of water but also of Light. So it was not just the 'proper' stone for the ring, but also the correct/proper stone for Galadriel.

Good point. Even for the members of the Fellowship that didn't have a ring, Galadriel seemed to exude a special "charisma" that is similar to Glorfindel, but lacking even in Elrond.

[mark12_30]

I believe Gandalf fills in Frodo's gaps in memory from Frodo's bedside just after he wakes up.

[Lalwendë]

Thanks for that! Located it and have copied it here:

'When the Ringwraiths swept by, your friends ran up behind. Close to the Ford there is a small hollow beside the road masked by a few stunted trees. There they hastily kindled fire; for Glorfindel knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried to cross, and then he would have to deal with any that were left on his side of the river. The moment the flood appeared, he rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.

This is also relevant:

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in
the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.'
'I know,' said Frodo. 'They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?'
'Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.'

Yet it was the 'Morgul-blade' that was almost the cause of Frodo becoming a wraith, not the Ring, though that helped the Ringwraiths to hurt him. Again, an artefact with magic of some kind wrought into it? Or just a blade which inflicted a terrible injury, but with the consequence that as a Ringbearer he would become a wraith rather than die?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yet it was the 'Morgul-blade' that was almost the cause of Frodo becoming a wraith, not the Ring, though that helped the Ringwraiths to hurt him. Again, an artefact with magic of some kind wrought into it? Or just a blade which inflicted a terrible injury, but with the consequence that as a Ringbearer he would become a wraith rather than die?

There is no indication that a wound from a ‘Morgul-knife’ with pieces of the blade within would have gradually changed only a Ring bearer into a wraith. It seems to me likely enough that if the leader of the Ringwraiths had stabbed Sam, or Merry, or Pippin, or Aragorn, the same thing would have happened to that person.

The part word morgul- means ‘black magic’ (mor ‘black’ + gûl ‘evil sorcery’).

Possibly because Frodo was a Ring-bearer he had increased susceptibility to a morgûl wound. Or possibly the Ring actually helped Frodo to resist the enchantment. We are not told either way. Aragorn’s athelas helped, but some fragments of the blade had gotten in too deep for Aragorn to find them.

But a knife that was otherwise normal but inflicted a horrible wound would probably not be called ‘Morgul-’ by Gandalf, its blade would not have vanished away in the light, and Aragorn and Glorfindel both would not have been so concerned. Glorfrindel in particular refers to signs written on the surviving hilt which he doubts the others can see but which are evil.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Lalwende:

There's that phrase which Gandalf uses though: "to my mind", which suggests to me that this fear of what powers other rings may possess is a fear that Gandalf knows he is either alone or in a minority with. It may be that Gandalf is more than a bit spooked having direct experience of watching what use of the One Ring does to someone, and is therefore more worried than other are. The question here is whether he is justified in his caution. But he knows it's his opinion, and not a universal truth.

It's possible his own ring gave him some extra insight on the matter, I suppose. We never hear Elrond's or Galadriel's opinions to compare it to, but I suspect you're right. Gandalf seems to do an awful lot of fretting. Maybe that's how he was able to stay true to his mission.

Originally posted by Formendacil:

This would be consistent with Gandalf's opinions about other things--the palantíri come to mind. Tolkien is quite clear in the essay on them in Unfinished Tales that Denethor, as Steward, had full right to use the Anor-stone, and that Aragorn had the same to use the Orthanc-stone; nonetheless, Gandalf sees it as highly dangerous to do so, and even cautions Aragorn (his closest collaborator in many respects, and possibly the Man he trusts most) about doing so.

Good note about the Palantiri. He seems constantly worried about the people he cares about putting too much trust in, for lack of a better word, technology. Even the lesser rings could be a danger in the wrong hands, or hands too weak. And how would you know they were too weak, until they were tested. Like Pippin with the Palantir. After the fact, he must settle for "The burned hand teaches best," when he might have preferred "I told you so."


Originally posted by Formendacil:

All of which is to say: I agree with lalwendë that a caution from Gandalf about the dangers of a "trifle" suggest that something like the Lesser Rings weren't so much evil as potentially dangerous--like, for example, a teenager with a motorcycle.

Of course, they could be both, at least in Gandalf's opinion.

Lalwende:

And building from this, note how the Nine and the One seem to 'break' the bonds set by Eru on the body and spirit (hroa and fea) of Men in particular. With the Nine, the hroa fades away and with the One it temporarily disappears entirely.

I'm glad you pointed this out. The Great Rings gave indefinitely long life to their bearers. They delayed the Gift of Iluvatar, but the lesser rings did not, despite many of them being tainted with Sauron's influence.

I'm still convinced, from everything I've read, that the way these rings work is by exposing the fea and thus the minds of Men who wear them to Sauron. The Elven rings work in a similar but more subtle and appropriate way.

In FotR, "Many Meetings,"Gandalf says:

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them and they could see you.

And earlier, in "Flight to the Ford:"

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

Somewhere later (I'm sorry, I forget where, and I can't seem to find it.) Frodo is told that this shining figure was Glorfindel as he appears on the other side because he came from over the sea, and was filled with the memory of the Undying Lands and I think that this memory never faded from those who ever once beheld it. I wonder if this is why Sauron was said the fear Galadriel. She was the only Elf left of any import to Sauron who had come from across the sea. Just a side-note I guess, perhaps a question for another thread, though it does fit in with your assessment of how the Great Rings worked. Perhaps the lesser rings provided a similar, though more limited, insight.

Again, this is a quote from Osanwe-Kenta:

"the lesser rings" - what does Tolkien mean, exactly, here?

Being deliberately vague, do you think?