WW XCVI - The Fell Winter of 2911

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

In any case, I suggest that if we have had no luck for the next few days and innocents die instead of wolves, we look at those who have been pushing them to their deaths. The most dangerous werewolf is an influential one, after all.

This is kind of obvious - actually, a little too obvious for my taste. Or should it be read as "Hear me, packmates, and keep a low profile while we help the loudmouths lynch each other"?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Pitchwife - Fake golden dragon claw on the counter? I can't see a way this does not scream "Get your fancy footwear from me!" Aaand he's 'a hypocrite to boot'!

Actually, what it does scream is "gratuitous Skyrim reference"; but your reading almost makes me wish I were the cobbler and had thought of such a hint.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Kath - Ooh Kath wants to talk about the cobbler! There's a girl to my liking. I don't think it will be said in the narration though, I think the cobbler will only be notified she hit a gifted. However, who would have a reason to be so interested in the cobbler?

Agreed about the narration, it's bad enough that the cobbler finds out that his pick is gifted without the narration pointing out the exact role. But I don't think the cobbler xyrself would be so interested in the matter to speculate about it on the thread, if that's what you were insinuating- I suppose xe'd rather clear up the technicalities of xyr role with Modanna behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Wolfberries

Hear hear!

[Meneltarmacil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

This is kind of obvious - actually, a little too obvious for my taste. Or should it be read as "Hear me, packmates, and keep a low profile while we help the loudmouths lynch each other"?

I'm no wolf, nor do I help them. The wolves involved in these lynchings need not be particularly loud, nor is every innocent lynched only by wolves.

However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, what it does scream is "gratuitous Skyrim reference"; but your reading almost makes me wish I were the cobbler and had thought of such a hint.

Psh. Never played Skyrim.

But I don't think the cobbler xyrself would be so interested in the matter to speculate about it on the thread, if that's what you were insinuating- I suppose xe'd rather clear up the technicalities of xyr role with Modanna behind the scenes.

Nopes and that's not what I thought. Rather, it would be in the wolves' interest to bring attention to the cobbler. Now it's me who's a hypocrite to boot though, considering my eternal love for discussing the cobbler's role and tactics. But I'm still allowed to accuse everyone else who does it.

Hear hear!

I hear they're nutritious. Regular consumption will make you fit enough to fight wolves single-handedly. Would you like to try some?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I'm no wolf, nor do I help them. The wolves involved in these lynchings need not be particularly loud, nor is every innocent lynched only by wolves.

However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.

Well yes, that's their job description, isn' it? And yes, if innocents are lynched, of course those who pushed the lynch will be questioned; nothing of that is new IMO.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nopes and that's not what I thought. Rather, it would be in the wolves' interest to bring attention to the cobbler. Now it's me who's a hypocrite to boot though, considering my eternal love for discussing the cobbler's role and tactics. But I'm still allowed to accuse everyone else who does it.

So in a game the defining characteristic of which, compared to other games, is a power boost to the role of the cobbler, wishing to discuss this power and how it affects the game is a sign of wolvery? What else would you like to discuss then?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I hear they're nutritious. Regular consumption will make you fit enough to fight wolves single-handedly. Would you like to try some?

Thanks, no. I've heard the enhanced fitness may come at the cost of uncontrollable body hair growth.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Meneltarmacil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Thanks, no. I've heard the enhanced fitness may come at the cost of uncontrollable body hair growth.

However, if you want something that will make you stronger, I happen to have a bottle of entdraught* that I'll sell for only 20 shiremarks. Doesn't get any cheaper than that!

*Unmentioned note: Actually just Old Forest water mixed with beer.

[Kath]

I get not mentioning whether the Seer dreams or not in the narration. I suppose we just have to assume they do. But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

And, good point about the Cobbler needing to avoid Night-kills. So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

No. I'll let her/him know they've made a hit though.

I take this to mean the narration won't say anything about the cobbler's activities. Otherwise she'd get to know the person's exact role.

And yeah we can't ignore the cobbler but there isn't a lot we can do about her right now either because she'll appear as an ordo to the seer. All the usual rules apply: lynch whoever is suspicious, no matter if you suspect them of furriness or das Schuhmachen.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So in a game the defining characteristic of which, compared to other games, is a power boost to the role of the cobbler, wishing to discuss this power and how it affects the game is a sign of wolvery? What else would you like to discuss then?

Yes. We're all wolves (except you who are the self-confessed cobbler), and I'd just like to talk about myself.

Originally Posted by Kath

But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

If the person dies because the cobbler stopped the ranger, she dies and that's it - if there was a narration about the cobbler holding the ranger back in a bear hug, the former would definitely learn which gifted she stopped.
And if the cobbler doesn't stop the ranger and she makes a successful save, I can't see any specific reason not to mention it.

So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

I would imagine it does.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Kath

So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I take this to mean the narration won't say anything about the cobbler's activities.

Obviously. It will be a lot of running in the dark, of course, the Ranger/Seer will know, but that won't help the "common folk" much. But then again, it really does not matter (technically) whether some kill occured because the person wasn't protected or because the Cobbler succeeded in targeting the Ranger - the person is still simply dead. In fact, it might even confuse the WWs - because it will be harder for them to determine the Ranger's identity that way, for example (i.e. they couldn't make conclusions based on who was likely to protect whom etc...)

Yes. We're all wolves (except you who are the self-confessed cobbler), and I'd just like to talk about myself.

We know you like nothing more than that.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

Hm, good spot. But then again, I think even innocents can speculate on theoretical basis - after all, what else is all this cobbler-pick debate about...

Anyway, so far, many of the people are "no show" and I am afraid I won't be around when the main debate starts. But no can do. I am trying to make as much as I can out of being here now, though of course there is nothing much to work with yet.

Shasta - exactly one of the no show folks
Menel - nothing special this far, I have no intention to get rid of him for no special reason when playing with him after such a long time
Glirdan - no show yet?
G55 - a bit in the beginning, nothing striking about her
Nerwen - again, nothing there
Legate - that's me
Pitchwife - a very nice discussion-starter, interesting digging deep into the Cobbler-issues, one can of course ask whether there isn't some agenda behind it, if he was a Wolf trying to find the Cobbler, then his Kath-spot might be attempt to randomly accuse someone, but if he was a Cobbler fishing for Wolves, not sure if he would start bringing attention to people who could be potential Wolves in his eyes; anyway, interesting persona
Nogrod - I fear of seeing him posting at 5 AM, when I am no longer here...
Lommy – nothing special this far
Inzil - talkative, but hard to make out anything out of that, though I'm somewhat wary
Aganzir - a bit the same case as Pitch, one of the Cob-talkers
Sally - no show...
Kath - ha, actually, I think I am sort of forming an opinion about her - which is most unusual, because normally I have no clue about her whatsoever! She seems in any case very active and interested, in fact, she was one of the main talkers this far... there is an air of genuine interest and activity about her, I'd say.

In any case, those are very preliminary, I mean, it's early Day 1. In general I don't have anybody I would find clearly suspicious or anything, so I hope there will be more overnight (my night) and also that I'll manage to process it before I have to vote...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Elaboration on how the narrative will reflect a block would indeed be useful. I'd also like to add that with the Cobbler's extra abilities this go around, there ought not to be anyone saying something "Leave X be; just a Cobbler".

Quite. This is probably the only time I will fall away from my usual approach and consider the Cobbler worth lynching when it comes to that. Image the situations of the Seer being revealed, having the last dream among us and being targeted... and so on.

Originally Posted by Kath

I get not mentioning whether the Seer dreams or not in the narration. I suppose we just have to assume they do. But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

And, good point about the Cobbler needing to avoid Night-kills. So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

Well, the Cobbler needs to avoid the Night-kills in every game, of course. The new thing is that probably this time around the Wolves care a bit more for the Cobbler than usual, because of the "bonus abilities".

As for the Cobbler's death and the ability still being active, I'd think so. In the Werebear games, for instance, if the Ranger was night-killed e.g. by the Bear but protected a person targeted by the Wolves, she most often still protected the person from the Wolves, even though she died herself. I would say this would be analogical case. Or, technically, just like a non-logical Hunter killing whomever. But maybe the Moddess can clarify.

Speaking of her... shh... Kitanna, you still haven't corrected the typo of "for the rest of the day" in your Cobbler description

Overall - I think I'll try to prepare some very short summary on what I think of people this far. I see the Cobbler-talk has dominated most of the debate, but that's pretty okay, I think. Better than sitting here being mute.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Pitch

[Galadriel55]

I'm popping in before leaving for a couple hours again and commenting as I read.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Wolfberries...

Hmmm....

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I'm no wolf, nor do I help them. The wolves involved in these lynchings need not be particularly loud, nor is every innocent lynched only by wolves.

This looks a bit overly defensive/dramatic for my taste. And this:

Originally Posted by Menel

However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.

...is the second time you're stating the obvious.

I don't know your playing style, and it might have changed anyways over your absence, and playing for the first time after a big break can be nervewracking, I guess, but you do sound a bit too concerned.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And yeah we can't ignore the cobbler but there isn't a lot we can do about her right now either because she'll appear as an ordo to the seer.

(Bolding mine)

Ok, I'm seriously hyperventilating right now. My alarm turned on when you said "her". I don't always write both genders, or a cross (like "xe"), but then people usually choose male over female. Why "her"? I can't wave it off as a typo, because you refer as the cobbler like that twice, and in different forms of the word! This makes me wonder about your role, Agan. Considering that, as you said, the seer doesn't differentiate a cobbler from an ordo, who else but the cobbler themself and the Moddess would know the correct gender of that role? What else, but the exact knowledge, could have caused this slip?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

Umm, innocents? We don't want the pick to go through!


Edit: xed since #23

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kath

Can we boost discussion toDay a bit somehow? Perhaps some conversation about the roles? This cobbler role is really interesting and I missed some of the discussion on it. If the cobbler chooses the Seer or the Ranger and thus disrupts their role - presumably the narration is going to say that the Seer didn't dream or the Ranger didn't protect. Will it be clear that this is due to the Cobbler - meaning the Cobbler will know the role of the person they picked?

Elaboration on how the narrative will reflect a block would indeed be useful. I'd also like to add that with the Cobbler's extra abilities this go around, there ought not to be anyone saying something "Leave X be; just a Cobbler".

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

This is kind of obvious - actually, a little too obvious for my taste. Or should it be read as "Hear me, packmates, and keep a low profile while we help the loudmouths lynch each other"?

Meh, I don't see that. Though I've never played with Menel before, I know I've made similar statements as an innocent many times (and been suspected, naturally ).

At least Pitch is vocal. That's useful.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Agreed about the narration, it's bad enough that the cobbler finds out that his pick is gifted without the narration pointing out the exact role. But I don't think the cobbler xyrself would be so interested in the matter to speculate about it on the thread, if that's what you were insinuating- I suppose xe'd rather clear up the technicalities of xyr role with Modanna behind the scenes.

Unless the Cobbler has it in xyr mind to hint to the wolves. After all, xe still has to avoid Night-kill.

x/d with Menel and Agan