Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

I see and this makes sense to me and I do agree with the logic here. However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

That's what I had though as well, however what about this time when he could have easily of lost his own ring: During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I see your point, after all he was a smooth talker form what were told.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I doubt that Ar-Pharazôn knew anything of the Ring. His predecessors on the throne had been hostile to the Elves who may alone have known of the great Ring, and even they may not have known the extent of its power. But Ar-Pharazôn had little to do with the Elves, the truth of whose traditions of Manwë and Varda Ar-Pharazôn had grown to largely disbelieve.

Ar-Pharazôn would have attributed Sauron’s power to various sources, including Sauron’s origin as a mighty Maia. Had the Elves attempted to warn Ar-Pharazôn of the Ring, he would have disbelieved them, seeing Sauron, so it seemed, humbled before him and his obedient servant.

[Morthoron]

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person. If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring. Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

Evidently, Ar-Pharazon never noticed it.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, II The Istari:

And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring [from Cirdan], and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person.

I agree.

If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused).

I admit the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to work in the power of invisibility only so that the Rings themselves could be made invisible, and yet not the wearers, and before Sauron's plan was revealed? Why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful of the Elven Rings in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

I had not considered this before, which does raise the question of why Saruman did not discover Narya at this point if it was visible. But one does not necessarily search for something that isn't suspected in the first place, and Saruman's wrath may have been focused on keeping Gandalf prisoner... a fairly major step to have taken, as it was, and I'm not sure it's noted that he even took away Gandalf's staff.

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

It also probably wouldn't have impressed them enough to be worth taking. Remember, in and of itself, the One Ring doesn't look like much, it's a simple gold band, without stone or (visible) inscription (it's unclear if the insription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen. And since this is "old" sauron we are talking about who can still take fair forms, her presumably isn't in a form where his hand is continually on fire.) To the eyes of a Numernorian Royal or noble, it would appear a cheap trifle, the kind of thing they'd fob off on a low foot soldier for some minor service that meritied a token reward for appearances sake. Nothing worth taking.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

it's unclear if the inscription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen.

Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).

It probably didn't, the pre-Akallebeth form was counted amoung the "fair" ones, and I rather doubt burning or blackened hands would count as "fair". As for why the Post did, I think the answer is that, when Saurom re-incarnated post-Akallebeth he realized that, given his strength, this was likey the last form he would have, and, limted as he was to "foul" forms by then wanted to go with one that seemed most likey to accompish his goal of conquest. So the form he chose was as close as he could get to the form his former master, Melkorm, had taken (with both we have a "gigantic" (not so big with Sauron, but he is still described as being more than normal man size) human form in black armor. Melkor's hands continually burned (from trying to handle the Silmarils) so Sauron made his hands firey as well. No to mentiond it does add an extra layer of protection to the rings, Isildur got by by chopping the finger off and then taking it, but someone who simply tried to pull the ring(s) off Sauron's hands when he was simply knocked out or asleep, assuming Sauron does sleep (Melkor did, so Sauron probably does) would have to deal with rings that were likely perpetually red hot.