Imagine No Redemption

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Saruman was a turn cloak. I don't think Radagast was; the worst you could say of him would be that he kept his cloak in the wardrobe and only brought it out for special occasions - Christmas, funerals and weddings as it were.

He didn't turn bad, and that's the point of the topic. If you were to make a list of good guys and bad guys you'd probably put him in the good box. Even if be is a little scatter brained or misguided.
I wonder if Gandalf should have taken him under his wing as a sort of cousin and they could have travelled Middle Earth together, like the blues. Gandalf keeping Radagast on the path and Radagast lightening Gandalf's burdain. Who knows?

[radagastly]

It occurs to me that this comparison between Radagast and Saruman could be applied just as easily to the Bree chapters and a comparison between Barliman Butterbur and Bill Ferny. Butterbur did the best he could within the circumstances that descended upon him, though he did not seek battle with the enemy. He lent what assistance he could, though in his ignorance, he did try to prevent Aragorn from meeting with the hobbits, just as Radagast delivered the message to Gandalf from Saruman despite not wanting to travel, and probably not trusting the situation. While Butterbur had a mistrust, perhaps even disdain, for Bill Ferny, he would not likely have ever considered that Ferny would actually consort with the enemy, yet there he was with his squint-eyed companion (who Unfinished Tales tells us, I believe, was a half-orc sent up the Greenway by Saruman to spy out the Shire in his search for the Ring and to negotiate for a trade of pipe-weed and other Shire goods.) If that's not "consorting," I don't know what is.

What I like about this is that it brings the epic, mythic tale of ancient wizards home to a human level, where an average-joe reader can relate it to their own lives.

[Galadriel55]

While I would put Radagast in the "pass" category, I would not put him together with Gandalf either. He has no need for redemption since technically he hasn't done anything evil (though not much good too), and has the best intentions at heart (which I think is an important factor). Yet unlike Gandalf he can claim no big reward either, since he only helped a little - and didn't do anything spectacular, most of the credit goes to the Eagles, not him. (Note: I doubt Gandalf would even desire a reward, or would realistically get anything specific, but theoretically he deserves it and arguably gets it in the means of respect/honour/etc, and the victory is rewarding enough in itself......my, that's a long and convoluted sentence.)

So if you wanna do nothing, you get nothing. Do bad - either repent or bear the consequences. Do good - you'll get some kind of recognition. Be neutral - no punishment or repentance needed, but no reward either.

This way, one does not group Gandalf and Radagast or Radagast and Saruman together in a conflicting combination.


PS: radagastly, you make a good analogy. It's some food for thought...

[Galadriel55]

I was browsing the Downs and found Saucy's thread about redemption that touches on some points mentioned here:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1647

[Inziladun]

Looking back on this thread, I note that the subject of the Vala Aulë's error was mentioned, but not explored.
Aulë, of course, "made" the Dwarves (physically, though not in a spiritual sense), something that he knew was beyond his authority. Melkor "made" the Orcs, by perverting existing Children of Ilúvatar already embodied with the One with fea. Melkor too understood the serious illegality of his act. Once again, we begin with different intentions, which in their turn lead to different end results for the offenders.

Aulë acted out of mere impatience; he wanted to teach his knowledge and instruct others in the building of Arda, and the glorification of the One thereby. As soon as Ilúvatar spoke to him about the matter, he was filled with shame and true remorse. That fact was recognized by Ilúvatar, who reacted by forgiving Aulë and giving the Dwarves a part in the Music.

Melkor, on the other hand, never was truly repentant for anything he did. Like the career criminal who says "I'm sorry" to the judge about to levy a heavy sentence, Melkor was only frustrated that he'd been caught. After his offense regarding the Orcs, he was put in prison. There can be no doubt he knew full well the nature of his crimes. Yet, he thought all the time only of how to perfect his technique so as never to be brought to justice again. His ultimate fate was to be cast into the Void.

So, we have one Vala gaining understanding of his misdeed and correcting his behavior, and thus is given a "slap on the wrist" by the Judge. The other is seen to be hardcore to the end, and gets what amounts to e life sentence. To me, intentions seem to be the key to redemption.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So, we have one Vala gaining understanding of his misdeed and correcting his behavior, and thus is given a "slap on the wrist" by the Judge. The other is seen to be hardcore to the end, and gets what amounts to e life sentence. To me, intentions seem to be the key to redemption.

Well, intentions are a part of the puzzle...definitely an integral part, but not the full puzzle.

One could argue Sauron had positive intentions, intentions he still retained even when he was the revealed, undeniable, Big Bad Evil in the 3rd Age:

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.~Home X: Morgoth's Ring, Myth's Transformed (Text VII)

Sauron's intentions can be argued as a positive. His virtue is his love for Order and co-ordination, so the evil isn't in his intentions. And it's not as if the Numenoreans and Gondorians were completely altruistic in their intentions through their history. Not knowing the perspective of men from say Rhun and Khand, they could have seen Sauron as a hero, freeing them from Gondor's expansionist threats., or the Numenorean's quest for supremacy as the dominant race of Men.

Intentions are of course a big part, as Tolkien describes in a letter talking about Gollum and the destructions of the Ring. Gollum's intentions are entirely selfish, and simply because good comes from his evil intentions in the Sammath Naur, does not mean Gollum is "redeemed." However, it's not entirely about intentions either, as above, I think an argument can be made that Sauron's intentions, and love for Order are positive. All intentions show is the "ends," what does Sauron hope to achieve. And his love for Order, combined with his pride lead to a distortion of total subjugation, an enslavement, to Sauron's will.

The other factor with intentions (or to call them "ends" for my purposes) are the actions (or "means.") Since we often hear about "means" and "ends." Sauron's intentions are positive, but the means he chooses to reach those ends morph into a terrible and sinister evil. Saruman provides the best example to what I'm attempting to argue:

Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."~The Council of Elrond

Now we can certainly whether Saruman's designs at this point are the true mission of the Istari, or not, but Saruman brings up a fascinating point for this thread. In Saruman's distorted mind his intentions may still be good and noble, but he still has clearly fallen off the path, so to say. In Saruman's mind, the means don't matter as much as the ends. Saruman can have the best of intentions, but if he's murdering and subjucating people to his will to achieve those ends, his means are completely messed up. You can say this is an important factor in Gandalf's rejection of the Ring. He knows in his heart his intentions would be positive, but it's his recognition that the power and means thof the Ring would ultimately lead to evil and pain.

Intentions and actions. Ends and means.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Intentions are of course a big part, as Tolkien describes in a letter talking about Gollum and the destructions of the Ring. Gollum's intentions are entirely selfish, and simply because good comes from his evil intentions in the Sammath Naur, does not mean Gollum is "redeemed." However, it's not entirely about intentions either, as above, I think an argument can be made that Sauron's intentions, and love for Order are positive. All intentions show is the "ends," what does Sauron hope to achieve. And his love for Order, combined with his pride lead to a distortion of total subjugation, an enslavement, to Sauron's will.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Now we can certainly whether Saruman's designs at this point are the true mission of the Istari, or not, but Saruman brings up a fascinating point for this thread. In Saruman's distorted mind his intentions may still be good and noble, but he still has clearly fallen off the path, so to say. In Saruman's mind, the means don't matter as much as the ends. Saruman can have the best of intentions, but if he's murdering and subjucating people to his will to achieve those ends, his means are completely messed up. You can say this is an important factor in Gandalf's rejection of the Ring. He knows in his heart his intentions would be positive, but it's his recognition that the power and means thof the Ring would ultimately lead to evil and pain.

Sauron and Saruman may have believed themselves acting for "good", at least at some point. However, the ultimate fate of both indicates that their self-delusion on that score was not considered when the time came to render judgement on them.
Gandalf does not give either of them leniency for false and corrupted beliefs that colored their actions. Neither does the Authority who passed sentence on them.

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that....there rose a huge shape of shadow...even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it. and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell,

ROTK The Field of Cormallen

....about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing,

ROTK The Scouring of the Shire

Even if we readers seek to understand and have pity on the "evil" characters in the books, the final judgements handed down to some appear to show no tolerance in the end for their deeds; the relative "goodness" of their intentions is not ultimately left up to them to decide.