What did boromir do in rivendell? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

urbanhiker · 10-01-2012, 02:43 PM

Interesting question, and it brings up another interesting question: if Boromir had been told by Denethor that Elrond was legitimate and trustworthy then why was Boromir so skeptical of Galadriel? He was almost as hesitant to enter Lorien as he was to pass through Moria!

Did Boromir not know of the close relationship and allegiance between Lorien and Rivendell? Or maybe Elrond's history of aiding the Dunedain of Arnor was known in Minas Tirith, whereas Lothlorien was more distant, mysterious, and difficult to comprehend. You'd think someone would have provided a little Elves 101 during a month in Rivendell and another several weeks' travel with Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas ...

Inziladun · 10-01-2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanhiker

Interesting question, and it brings up another interesting question: if Boromir had been told by Denethor that Elrond was legitimate and trustworthy then why was Boromir so skeptical of Galadriel? He was almost as hesitant to enter Lorien as he was to pass through Moria!

While it's possible (or even likely) that Minas Tirith received some news from Elves of Lórien from time to time, the average Gondorian would still have harbored some wariness about Elves in general. That would be in keeping with the Third Age theme of a gradual estrangement and drawing away of the Elves in Middle-earth from the other "speaking peoples". Add in dimly recalled myths and half-truths about Lórien and its Lady remembered in Gondor and Boromir's uneasiness is explained. Boromir wasn't exactly thrilled about Elrond, either. It was only the inability to interpret a strange dream that had the ring of a prophesy that induced Denethor to send Boromir to Rivendell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanhiker

Did Boromir not know of the close relationship and allegiance between Lorien and Rivendell? Or maybe Elrond's history of aiding the Dunedain of Arnor was known in Minas Tirith, whereas Lothlorien was more distant, mysterious, and difficult to comprehend. You'd think someone would have provided a little Elves 101 during a month in Rivendell and another several weeks' travel with Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas ...

Well, Boromir may not have been in on all the planning. He had no knowledge of Moria, after all. He may have simply not looked past the planned crossing over the Dimrill Stair.

Mithalwen · 10-01-2012, 03:49 PM

We know that Boromir, unlike his father and brother was not so interested in lore and was in some ways alike to the men of Rohan who have a great suspicion of Lorien. Even Faramir who is more learned and perhaps open to other cultures is wary of Lorien. Maybe Rivendell having been forgotten by most was less threatening than the closer realm that was the subject of rumour and superstition.

This prejudice is reinforced by Galadriel perceiving his developing desire for the Ring.

Boromir certainly doesn't embrace his alleged distant elven ancestry..

jallanite · 10-01-2012, 09:23 PM

Tolkien seems to be imagining that Men told tales of Lothlórien and its Elvish ruler similar to medieval tales of Fays who often appear as deceptive.

Compare Morgain the Fay in medieval tales who in some stories is Arthur’s sister who takes Arthur away after his last battle to heal him and who in some stories is a villainous would-be murderess, hostile to Arthur and to all his knights.

It would have been nice if Tolkien had actually told some of the tales supposedly current in Gondor and Rohan about Lothlórien and Galadriel.

Medieval fays often appear as seductresses who make mortals into their lovers. In some tales this is mostly represented as a good thing and in some tales it is not so. One might imagine a tale of a knight of Gondor who in error wandered into Lothlórien and met Galadriel who restored him to his own world, and how forever after the knight had little interest in his earthly duties and no interest in taking a wife but thought only of Galadriel. Galadriel as la belle dame sans merci unintentionale!

Faramir, while mostly not believing such tales as he knows, does believe that it is perilous to Men to seek Elves. Faramir and Sam both link Boromir’s lust for the Ring with the almost-temptation of Galadriel, is if Boromir was already tempted but it was Galadriel’s testing which (unintentionally) fully brought out Boromir’s lust for the Ring.

The same supposed Elvish ancestry was shared by Ar-Pharazôn. Anárion, possibly one of Boromir’s ancestors, was brother to Isildur who was the first Man to be tempted by the Ring, so far as we are told. But I understand what you are saying and do not disagree.

Mithalwen · 10-02-2012, 03:06 AM

Ar Pharazon? I was thinking of Mithrellas elf of Lothlorien and supposed ancestress of the Lords of Dol Amroth , not the "known" Elvish strain in the line of Elendil and other descendants of Elros. And I didn't relate the Elf blood to being tempted.

Interesting that Faramir seems to know what happened even before he knows about the Ring, "What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then?.." .

It is possible that the verse Gandalf says "in Dwimordene, in Lorien.." originated from Rohan and Gandalf was reminding of them rather than informing. Faramir comments that the Men of Rohan "shun the Elves and speak of the Goldenwood with Great Dread". I think in Cirion and Eorl in UT the host of Eorl is "protected" by the mist emanating from Lorien. It may be that although this was benevolent it was sufficiently uncanny to be a basis of the widespread suspicion of Lorien and its inhabitants. We know that they have an oral tradition and so stories are more likely to get distorted as they pass that way rather than being written.
The Rohirrim are a more superstitious lot on the whole - using terms like devilment, devilry, devil's mirk seems to be a feature of their language.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-02-2012, 08:11 AM

It seems that in contemporary Gondor almost nothing was known of Rivendell; according to Boromir, when he asked about the dream-verse ("Seek for the Sword that was Broken/In Imladris it dwells") all his father had was "that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of loremasters." I don't think Gondor would have been inherently mistrustful of Elros' brother, but it does seem that there hadn't been a family reunion in recent centuries! Notice that neither Denethor nor anybody else even knew where the place was: "long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay."

As to Lorien, one gets the impression that it was decidedly unwelcoming to outsiders; in fact, aside from Aragorn when had a Man last been admitted? Even other Elves weren't frequent visitors; Celeborn tells Legolas "Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North."

Tuor in Gondolin · 10-02-2012, 08:19 AM

You'd think Boromir would have liked to learn of his great-great-great(etc.) grandfather from his uncle Elrond. And of course tales of Numenor. Of course, there's that Aragorn problem to be taken care of (sort of like taking care of that Jim Rockford- tv series- problem).

Mithalwen · 10-02-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It seems that in contemporary Gondor almost nothing was known of Rivendell; As to Lorien, one gets the impression that it was decidedly unwelcoming to outsiders; in fact, aside from Aragorn when had a Man last been admitted? Even other Elves weren't frequent visitors; Celeborn tells Legolas "Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North."

Rivendell wasn't easy to find even if you knew fairly closely its location, no doubt protected by one of those quirks of geography that mean you can't see it for looking. Even Gandalf, in The Hobbit, needs to look for the markers. It may well have been that Boromir and even Legolas were guided in the last stages by Rangers or Elves on watch outside the valley. Certainly a half elf far away and akin might seem less threatening than a full elf woman "on the doorstep" - and there may well be something in jallanite's comment about fays if the story of Beruthiel. Minas Tirith, even by Tolkien's standards is an excessively male environment, by the time the reader gets there the only women present are the likes of Ioreth and until Sauron falls the only one to enter is disguised as a man! Maybe they do feel particularly threatened by a feminine power. And now I find myself thinking of the realms of Middle Earth as Oxford colleges with the ladies' establishments kept safely on the fringes!

That said Middle Earth is sparsely populated and any interraction is limited - even the Shire and Bree less than a day's ride apart have become strangers. Lorien and Thranduil have the menace of Dol Guldur separating them.

Lobelia · 10-17-2012, 05:19 AM

[QUOTE=urbanhiker;675049]

Did Boromir not know of the close relationship and allegiance between Lorien and Rivendell?
Well, yes, Galadriel was Elrond's mother-in-law, after all!

10-01-2012, 03:49 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	We know that Boromir, unlike his father and brother was not so interested in lore and was in some ways alike to the men of Rohan who have a great suspicion of Lorien. Even Faramir who is more learned and perhaps open to other cultures is wary of Lorien. Maybe Rivendell having been forgotten by most was less threatening than the closer realm that was the subject of rumour and superstition. This prejudice is reinforced by Galadriel perceiving his developing desire for the Ring. Boromir certainly doesn't embrace his alleged distant elven ancestry.. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-02-2012, 03:06 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Ar Pharazon? I was thinking of Mithrellas elf of Lothlorien and supposed ancestress of the Lords of Dol Amroth , not the "known" Elvish strain in the line of Elendil and other descendants of Elros. And I didn't relate the Elf blood to being tempted. Interesting that Faramir seems to know what happened even before he knows about the Ring, "What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then?.." . It is possible that the verse Gandalf says "in Dwimordene, in Lorien.." originated from Rohan and Gandalf was reminding of them rather than informing. Faramir comments that the Men of Rohan "shun the Elves and speak of the Goldenwood with Great Dread". I think in Cirion and Eorl in UT the host of Eorl is "protected" by the mist emanating from Lorien. It may be that although this was benevolent it was sufficiently uncanny to be a basis of the widespread suspicion of Lorien and its inhabitants. We know that they have an oral tradition and so stories are more likely to get distorted as they pass that way rather than being written. The Rohirrim are a more superstitious lot on the whole - using terms like devilment, devilry, devil's mirk seems to be a feature of their language. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-02-2012, 08:11 AM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	It seems that in contemporary Gondor almost nothing was known of Rivendell; according to Boromir, when he asked about the dream-verse ("Seek for the Sword that was Broken/In Imladris it dwells") all his father had was "that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of loremasters." I don't think Gondor would have been inherently mistrustful of Elros' brother, but it does seem that there hadn't been a family reunion in recent centuries! Notice that neither Denethor nor anybody else even knew where the place was: "long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay." As to Lorien, one gets the impression that it was decidedly unwelcoming to outsiders; in fact, aside from Aragorn when had a Man last been admitted? Even other Elves weren't frequent visitors; Celeborn tells Legolas "Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North." __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-02-2012, 08:19 AM	#7
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	You'd think Boromir would have liked to learn of his great-great-great(etc.) grandfather from his uncle Elrond. And of course tales of Numenor. Of course, there's that Aragorn problem to be taken care of (sort of like taking care of that Jim Rockford- tv series- problem). __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

10-01-2012, 02:43 PM	#1
urbanhiker Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11	Interesting question, and it brings up another interesting question: if Boromir had been told by Denethor that Elrond was legitimate and trustworthy then why was Boromir so skeptical of Galadriel? He was almost as hesitant to enter Lorien as he was to pass through Moria! Did Boromir not know of the close relationship and allegiance between Lorien and Rivendell? Or maybe Elrond's history of aiding the Dunedain of Arnor was known in Minas Tirith, whereas Lothlorien was more distant, mysterious, and difficult to comprehend. You'd think someone would have provided a little Elves 101 during a month in Rivendell and another several weeks' travel with Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas ...

10-01-2012, 09:23 PM	#4
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Tolkien seems to be imagining that Men told tales of Lothlórien and its Elvish ruler similar to medieval tales of Fays who often appear as deceptive. Compare Morgain the Fay in medieval tales who in some stories is Arthur’s sister who takes Arthur away after his last battle to heal him and who in some stories is a villainous would-be murderess, hostile to Arthur and to all his knights. It would have been nice if Tolkien had actually told some of the tales supposedly current in Gondor and Rohan about Lothlórien and Galadriel. Medieval fays often appear as seductresses who make mortals into their lovers. In some tales this is mostly represented as a good thing and in some tales it is not so. One might imagine a tale of a knight of Gondor who in error wandered into Lothlórien and met Galadriel who restored him to his own world, and how forever after the knight had little interest in his earthly duties and no interest in taking a wife but thought only of Galadriel. Galadriel as la belle dame sans merci unintentionale! Faramir, while mostly not believing such tales as he knows, does believe that it is perilous to Men to seek Elves. Faramir and Sam both link Boromir’s lust for the Ring with the almost-temptation of Galadriel, is if Boromir was already tempted but it was Galadriel’s testing which (unintentionally) fully brought out Boromir’s lust for the Ring. The same supposed Elvish ancestry was shared by Ar-Pharazôn. Anárion, possibly one of Boromir’s ancestors, was brother to Isildur who was the first Man to be tempted by the Ring, so far as we are told. But I understand what you are saying and do not disagree.

10-17-2012, 05:19 AM	#9
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	[QUOTE=urbanhiker;675049] Did Boromir not know of the close relationship and allegiance between Lorien and Rivendell? Well, yes, Galadriel was Elrond's mother-in-law, after all!