What did boromir do in rivendell?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It seems that in contemporary Gondor almost nothing was known of Rivendell; As to Lorien, one gets the impression that it was decidedly unwelcoming to outsiders; in fact, aside from Aragorn when had a Man last been admitted? Even other Elves weren't frequent visitors; Celeborn tells Legolas "Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North."

Rivendell wasn't easy to find even if you knew fairly closely its location, no doubt protected by one of those quirks of geography that mean you can't see it for looking. Even Gandalf, in The Hobbit, needs to look for the markers. It may well have been that Boromir and even Legolas were guided in the last stages by Rangers or Elves on watch outside the valley. Certainly a half elf far away and akin might seem less threatening than a full elf woman "on the doorstep" - and there may well be something in jallanite's comment about fays if the story of Beruthiel. Minas Tirith, even by Tolkien's standards is an excessively male environment, by the time the reader gets there the only women present are the likes of Ioreth and until Sauron falls the only one to enter is disguised as a man! Maybe they do feel particularly threatened by a feminine power. And now I find myself thinking of the realms of Middle Earth as Oxford colleges with the ladies' establishments kept safely on the fringes!

That said Middle Earth is sparsely populated and any interraction is limited - even the Shire and Bree less than a day's ride apart have become strangers. Lorien and Thranduil have the menace of Dol Guldur separating them.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Minas Tirith, even by Tolkien's standards is an excessively male environment, by the time the reader gets there the only women present are the likes of Ioreth and until Sauron falls the only one to enter is disguised as a man! Maybe they do feel particularly threatened by a feminine power. And now I find myself thinking of the realms of Middle Earth as Oxford colleges with the ladies' establishments kept safely on the fringes

Bree contains no women so far as we are shown. Rivendell contains only one woman, Arwen, so far as we are shown. Balin’s kingdom in Moria contained no dwarf-women, so far as we are told. All of Lothlórien contains only one woman, Galadriel, so far as we are shown. All of Rohan contains only one woman, Éowyn, so far as we are shown. The Ents are all male, having lost their she-ents. Mordor contains no women, so far as we are shown, unless we count Ungoliant as barely inside Mordor instead of barely outside it. Minas Tirith contains only one named woman, Ioreth, so far as we are told. Ioreth and unnamed women work in the House of Healing under the supervision of a male Warden.

I don’t see that “Minas Tirith, even by Tolkien′s standards, is an excessively male environment.” It is just the norm. Comparatively Tom Bombadil was living in a harim.

Would it have made a difference if Tolkien had been employed and lived in something more like a modern university in which many women worked at the same level that he did and some of them produced works of superb scholarship? Merry and Pippin might as well be Amy and Rory from the recent Doctor Who television stories. There is no real reason why at least one of the main Hobbits could not have been female.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Jallanite:

unless we count Ungoliant as barely inside Mordor instead of barely outside it.

I'm guessing you mean Shelob?

But I get your point.

[Mithalwen]

That isn't actually the case. We know that the cloaks of the company were woven by Galadriel and her maidens, Rohan has women - there is a camp in the Hold of Dunharrow which houses the exiles from Edoras "women and children and old men". and in Underharrow and Upbourne "where many sad faces of women looked out from dark doors". Bree had children which necessitates women somewhere. Balin's party may have had women but the dwarves by their culture would not advertise it and how could anyone else tell given the nature of Dwarf women.

So yes I find it quite easy to distinguish between places that are ruled by women (Lorien) or have high profile royal women (Rohan and Rivendell) and places that must have had women (Bree) and somewhere from which the women have been evacuated other than those working for the healers (and the only named one basically a figure of ridicule).

Minas Tirith not only has no woman of significance but the last one "withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock". Minas Tirith has few children, few gardens, the claim of Arvedui was refused because "in Gondor this heritage is reckoned through sons only"

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by radagastly

I'm guessing you mean Shelob?

Oops! My error.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That isn't actually the case.

Yes, I was exaggerating, but only slightly.

The problem is that Tolkien may be seen as naively sexist, writing an heroic romance in part based on medieval tales that are also sexist because the society was sexist and the authors were almost all male. For most of his life Tolkien lived in a society in which it was taken for granted that even bus drivers and postal workers were all male.

But since The Lord of the Rings is arguably the third most popular book ever written (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books ), it seems that this supposed sexism has not hurt the sales much. I suspect it is because it is not really sexism at all.

Partly The Lord of the Rings gets away with it because Tolkien personally appears not to have had any problems with women and partly because a good writer can get away with anything and partly because he is so obviously concerned with the morality of his characters and partly because he writes Galadriel and Éowyn so strongly.

Given all that, and given that Tolkien nowhere proposes that any real or fictional society would be improved by females being given less voice than males, it is not worth making much of it. Those who try don’t get very far. Rightly so I think.

[Belegorn]

It's as true in Arda as in ME, "This is a man's world" - James Brown. There is Alderion and Erendis, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Beren and Luthien [she was really the one wearing the pants], Turin and Nienor, Tuor and Idril, Andreth, also in the sexist world of ME there were 3 Queens of Numenor who ruled.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Given all that, and given that Tolkien nowhere proposes that any real or fictional society would be improved by females being given less voice than males, it is not worth making much of it. Those who try don’t get very far. Rightly so I think.

I didn't say it was, it was an observation not a criticism. If anything it serves to highlight the renewal brought by the return of the King and bringing home his Queen. I am sure somewhere, though I haven't located it about how part of the problem of Gondor was that it had become obsessed by it's past and thought less of the future. No doubt the darkening state of the world was a factor but it is noticeable that both Theodred and Boromir died childless at an age when most heirs of great houses are expected to have done their duty by posterity whatever their preferences. OF course their deaths allow a complete new order butI still think there is significance beyond that.

I think that Imrahil is the example of how Denethor might have been, both in his relationship to Faramir and his leadership. He recognises Aragorn instantly for what he is and cedes authority. His heir already has an heir at the time of the War of the Ring... a little triumph of hope against the darkness. Faramir of course becomes Prince mirroring his Uncle's rank and his fiefdom is the reclaimed Ithilien "the Garden of Gondor" as verdant as Minas Tirith is cold and stony.

I have never felt the lack of female characters even as a nine year old proto-feminist first exposed to the hobbit and by the time I got to LOTR Eowyn and Galadriel were sufficiently wonderful to compensate for a mere head count, and I find their artificial insertion into the films patronising and as ludicrous as if they say made the Tom Hanks character in Saving Private Ryan a woman. Anyway this has been a long digression off the topic, my fault no doubt for mentioning something that occured to me in the course of another response.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

NB: T specifically tells us that Minas Tirith's women and children had been evacuated, except for the Healers, and boys like Bergil who served as runners. Presumably they're back by Elessar's coronation, although the only one mentioned is Ioreth's "kinswoman from the country;" but then that chapter doesn't name a single new character of any sort.*


*Actually, in draft the chapter did introduce a new character, Finduilas; Tolkien then changed her name to Arwen and ret-conned her into earlier chapters.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

… also in the sexist world of ME there were 3 Queens of Numenor who ruled.

Considering how many rulers of Númenor there were, that actually sounds very sexist.

Of course, Tolkien was basing his politics on the rules of kingship found in the real world. Should he be blamed for that?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have never felt the lack of female characters even as a nine year old proto-feminist first exposed to the hobbit and by the time I got to LOTR Eowyn and Galadriel were sufficiently wonderful to compensate for a mere head count, and I find their artificial insertion into the films patronising and as ludicrous as if they say made the Tom Hanks character in Saving Private Ryan a woman. Anyway this has been a long digression off the topic, my fault no doubt for mentioning something that occured to me in the course of another response.

Quite agreed. One might as well blame the book Little Women for having too many women. In The Hobbit the only females even mentioned are Belladonna Took and one half of the Sackville-Bagginses. But the book is sufficiently well written that it transcends any attempt to blame Tolkien for writing an adventure story in which males only appear.

You digression was amusing and I though it might be fun to take it farther. Apparently not. Sorry.

[Mithalwen]

Ah well I didn't detect the amusement, I have a somewhat literal mind at times that can cause a sense of humour bypass. Tone of voice can be very hard to read. My first neg repped post was because what I had written as self deprecating also read as somewhat arrogant. Hey ho...

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Considering how many rulers of Númenor there were, that actually sounds very sexist.

If it were so sexist I'd say there would be ONLY kings which there weren't. I believe there are more women than men in the real world. I also believe without the consent of men women would have less rights than they do today. I do wonder if the sexes are equal why women should ever be treated as lesser than men being half and usually most of the population. Personally I do not believe in equality. I think some people are better than others.

Back to Tolkien, Galadriel was the equal of Feanor who was seen as the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar. Though with Elves there was not much difference in physical ability between the sexes whereas in our world men are about 30% stronger than women physically. So is there sexism or women not knowing their place? I'm not sure. I like women even those like Penthesilia but even the daughter of Ares was no match for Achilles. I can't see an army of women in the thick of battle where the men are perhaps just nurses or non-combatants. Obviously, people not being equal there are some women who're more suited for battle than men. There are always some things that make me wonder about these differences like war, philosophizing, birthing humans, etc.