Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[the phantom]

I'm still turning the implications of the roles over in my mind here- hope no one minds all this thinking out loud and asking for input. (To our moddess- seriously I find these rules/roles to be quite fun for providing Day 1 musings. Well done. )

Lately I've been contemplating how bold dream recipients could potentially be even in the absence of Amandil. I mean- if last night's recipient admits to it and states the target, what are the baddies going to do about it? Kill him?

I don't think so, as that would then prove the dream-target's innocence/guilt and simultaneously leave Elendil alive for another dream. I'm thinking the KM's would most definitely not attack the dream recipient and target because those are two people guaranteed not to be Elendil.

Under this set up it would be ideal for Elendil to dream of the other gifteds or use them as recipients, as he simply has to be top priority for the Baddies thus they would as a rule shy away from killing his dreams. BUT how would the KMs even find Elendil given that he has zero secret verifiable information to pass on, as he himself is not the recipient? Seriously- I'm almost sorry for them.

And on my earlier point about Isildur just using his power on Day 1, if he does so might he just go ahead and Day 1 reveal? It would give another trustable figure, and also rule out the necessity of bothering to dream of him. The only downside I think would be the KMs could rule him out as Elendil. Any thoughts on this?

[the phantom]

Have not heard from these at all:
Lottie
Sally
Steve
Brin

[Pomegranate]

Phantom: That is pretty much what I was heading to with "stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch." Either we'd get a new innocent every day (one that pretty much isn't under the threat of dying, as long as Elendil stays alive, given that KM would hunt for Elendil), or a new KM would be revealed. This would need the chain for it to work, though - otherwise there's no trusting the dreams. Or would it be worth it for the KM to fake dream reveals? If they are sent a dream, then yes - they can lie and no-one can prove it wrong.

I'll need to think about Isildur before having an opinion on it.

[the phantom]

Yeah, Pom- the chain thing would force the choice. I suppose Elendil will logically send Amandil a dream tonight of his previous recipient to start things off, then it'll be up to him whether or not to continue from the opposite end of the chain the next night- assuming that the opposite end has not already been found guilty, that is. Given that circumstance I suppose Amandil's dream target (last night's recipient) would request night protection and be granted a second dream to restart the innocent chain.

In rereading the rules on the Admin page I noticed this under Elendil-

May use gift on Night1.

Which I suppose means that it would be within his power not to use his gift Night 1. Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1? I would understand some amount of hesitation given that Elendil had no Day activity to base suspicions off of, and given the number of Gifteds and their various useful powers he may have decided it would be wiser not to shoot the village in the foot with a potentially disastrous Night 1 selection.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

About Isildur's power to save a lynchee, what would happen if no-one in the village voted on Day One? Is this against the rules?

From the village perspective, it would be great to save Isildur's power, not lynch a gifted, and then have (hopefully) info to go on on Day Two.

Or is that completely ridiculous? Sorry, I'm cooking supper while thinking about this so it's probably not coherent. Also, my chili will probably turn out sub-standard due to lack of focus.

[Morsul the Dark]

King's Cronies
Manwe
Boro
Nerwen

I think I read these two pages 4 times before I figured out what was going on so simple yet I couldn't digest it.

On a personal note number one priority for me not having tunnel vision this time around. It's gotten me into trouble in the past.

See phantom's dream plan seems solid and good for the villiage but revealing Isildur as well? That's just a bad idea I think.

I will be back in a bit gym and groceries...


Edit: bolded list
I'll be annoyingly present Friday, day off.

[Inziladun]

My (random?) list notwithstanding, at the moment Steve is probably my top lynch pick, mainly because I think not voting plays to the baddies more often than not.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My (random?) list notwithstanding, at the moment Steve is probably my top lynch pick, mainly because I think not voting plays to the baddies more often than not.

What? I never suggested not voting.

edit: Oh, wait, you mean that you feel like you need to vote someone.

[Loslote]

Of the list I posted earlier, Eonwe topped the list because I actually did (and still do) feel a tiny bit off about him. Nothing anywhere near suspicion, just Day 1 guy feeling. Pomegranate made it on because I have always liked...her?...name. Zil was complete hat-draw.


All this goes to say, if I had to vote now, I'd go for Eonwe. I just feel like your posts are a bit too...careful.

EDIT: xed with Zil. Um. Oh. Right. Hi there.

[the phantom]

Okay, so... I'd better start forming suspicions for voting, right? I'm going to blame it on not playing for so long, but I've seriously been forgetting to read with any sense of guilt/innocence in mind- as if we've just been having a pregame strategy discussion or something. *sigh* Time to reread.... Back soon with thoughts....

[Morsul the Dark]

shasta dreamed phantom so Brinn has to be erendil

x'ed Phantom

[Galadriel55]

The crowd was gathered around the place where they found the dying man that morning. Accusations flew high, and chaos was among the people. One knew not what to do or how to proceed. Among the confusion stood an aged man, proud and silent. His eyes were thoughtful and his beard almost white. So wise the men deemed him to be that the people begged him, all as one, to give them counsel.

“Counsel you shall have from me,” he said, “and more”. All were now looking intently at him, even the youngsters, surveying his face. The more they looked the more wisdom the old man seemed to attain. “You have heard your neighbours speak among themselves,” the man began, and the people nodded their agreement. “You know what a true Faithful would say.” More nods from the people. “I know what a true Faithful would say.” Shouts of “Aye!” are heard. “Yet there are three among us who cannot possibly say it, for they are not of the Faithful. Therefore I say to you: think! Which people do not speak like the Faithful should? Which ones sound like frauds?” His eyes went around the circle of men and stopped on one face. The others followed his gaze.

“What say you to that?” someone asked the man.

“I say that there is no taint on me!” he replied with heat, and with a trace of fear. Men around him began to shout. He protested. He reasoned with them. He replied to one of them, but for each answer he gave ten new accusations were thrown at him. Finally, the old man said,

“Are you a King’s Man in disguise?”

“I am not!”

“But do you not think that with all the evidence these good people have gathered you cannot not be a King’s Man?”

“...I think... Therefore I am – according to you! To you and all the rest of you! What happened to my brothers? My brothers, who but a day ago would have risked their life for mine! And now I am a King’s Man!” His anger and resentment was beyond words. With a desperate gleam in his eyes, he raised his fists and looked about like an animal trapped in a cage. Someone laughed.

A stone whizzed through the air and hit him on the head. Another followed. The man hid his head under his arms. More stones flew. In a matter of ten minutes, it was done. And nothing happened. The villagers perceived now with horror that they have indeed killed one of their own, an innocent ordinary man. The old man closed his eyes.

ALIVE:

Morsul
Nerwen
Inzil
Lottie
Shasta
Manwe
PomPom
The Phantom
sally
Boro
Steve
Brin

DEAD:
G55, the hesitant King’s Man (modess) – stabbed on Night1
Eomer (ordo) – stoned on Day1


Night people, do your job. KMs, PM me your kill. Elendil, Anarion - names.

[Galadriel55]

The night was still and silent. Then, a door opened. The glow of a candle illuminated the street. The candle moved steadily along the street, to the town square. The square was surrounded by buildings and had a well in the middle. All the ways met there, people once said – which was true enough about the village.

The well creaked and groaned as a bucket of water was pulled up. The man with the candle unhooked it from the rope and stood it on the ground. Hearing footsteps behind him, he turned around to face the three approaching men. He laughed quietly. It had no mirth to it.

“What would such a noble man be doing outside at this hour?” one of the King’s Men asked sweetly.

“No less and no more than getting a drink of water, good sirs,” the man replied, with a hint of mockery in his voice.

“A drink of water? What a small thing to pay for with your life, lordling,” the second man said.

“At the least my life will be worth more than all of yours put together!” the man replied steadfastly.

“Your life? Life, say you? Life? Bah! It has no value. Of cheap things it is the cheapest,” the third King’s Man laughed. “Life! What is life? A chicken has life too, and yet you will not hesitate to eat it!” He laughed again. “Two men have lost their lives by our hands. Now it will be three. And there will be more – all of this beggarly brood, and more – all of the Elendili! What is their life but a thing bound to be lost?”

“You are a fool, if you speak so,” the lone man replied majestically. “You do not know how dear life is. You will not know – not until you lose it yourselves. The only reason my life is worth naught to you,” he continued, “is because by taking it you save your own. You are nothing but cowards! Craven!”

“If you think this will aid you, you are mistaken, and you will pay dearly for your mistake.” The King’s Men smiled as they advanced. The man stood silent and proud, as though he was not, weaponless and outnumbered, facing the last minutes of his life, but as though he was a king in the head of an army leading his men to victory.

They struggled with each other for a long time. But the man was one, when the King’s Men were three. Eventually they held him fast between them, and he, exhausted, could not escape. Two of the men gripped his arms and shoulders, so that he could not move, and the third forced his head into the bucket of water that the man himself raised from the well.

“Drink, man, drink!” the King’s Men taunted. “We would not be indebted to you!”

And he drank. He breathed in deeply. Once, twice. His body went limp. A pale mist rose over his body and floated slowly to the West, where the last stars still showed against the pale of dawn. The King’s Men stared at his body, unbelieving. How could a man who valued life so much part with it so easily? The stood for a few more minutes, and then walked away, still pondering, leaving the body untouched. When the villagers woke up, they found it lying there, with the face still in the water.

ALIVE:

Morsul
Nerwen
Inzil
Lottie
Shasta
Manwe
PomPom
The Phantom
sally
Steve
Brin

DEAD:
G55, the hesitant King’s Man (modess) – stabbed on Night1
Eomer (ordo) – stoned on Day1
Boro (gifted) – drowned on Night2


Night people - stop your nightly duties! Day people - begin your daily tasks!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Boro (gifted) – drowned on Night2

That is not permitted.

[the phantom]

Well crap. I suppose that means that stunt he was pulling in #20 was legit, then? I was hoping that he was an Ordo doing a distraction, or perhaps a Baddie laying something false, but I feared he was totally on the level with his hinting, and obviously the baddies agreed....

*sigh*

Was he the dream chain, Shasta?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Which I suppose means that it would be within his power not to use his gift Night 1. Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1? I would understand some amount of hesitation given that Elendil had no Day activity to base suspicions off of, and given the number of Gifteds and their various useful powers he may have decided it would be wiser not to shoot the village in the foot with a potentially disastrous Night 1 selection.

If we go with this, that's why it's vital to start with a revealed Amandil. If Elendil doesn't start from a known innocent, that runs the risk of him choosing a KM as a dream recipient. If a KM is a recipient, a bold one with a pack confident they can get rid of Elendil within 1 night or 2, could actually bluntly reveal "I was a recipient and ____ was the dream, is innocent."

This could be disastrous because Elendil wouldn't be able to refute the recipient's reveal. If the KM just tells the truth about the dream being innocent, that person can't refute "That's right I am innocent." KMs whack Elendil first, then the dreamed innocent the KM received next. And the KM recipient has the added defense "they're trying to get Elendil first, not go after the target or recipient" to stay alive longer. By the time everyone realizes the recipient was a KM it might be too late to correct it, all because the KM correctly admits to being the dream-recipient and then tells the truth about the target.

[Mänwe]

More likely that Elendil picks an ordo the first night than it is for any King's Men to correctly kill Elendil in the first night.

But yes, Amandil to reveal himself- with the hope the Ranger is watching to save him in the night.

As for Isuldur's power, I would say not to reveal himself- if we already have Amandil making himself known we're giving away two roles! You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Also- did anyone give any thoughts on my idea for Isildur to just save whoever gets lynched today given the simple odds at this point in the village?

It's a gamble. I get that the odds favor an innocent being saved, but that's a waste of Isildur's gift. Might as well do what Eomer suggested and not vote, or deliberately tie, which will result in no death.

However, I'm always reluctant to avoid voting, even with slim suspicions. Votes are the only weapon for the village.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Finally- are we ready for Amandil to step up?

Is Amandil ready to step up?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Currently Elendil has one dream and sent it to one person. I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure. From what I understand, Elendil can double-check and send the same name to a different person, but that's wasting dream choices. And further, there would be no way for Elendil to know which person was telling the truth if he sent 2 people the same name and they relayed conflicting info.

I don't see what you mean by saying "I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure." Elendil gets his dream result from the Moddess, and shares them with the person of their choice, right? I feel like I'm missing something elementary. I have caffeine in front of me now though, so that's a help.

And what happens to this plan if Amandil dies? He cannot be protected consecutive Nights.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

As for Isuldur's power, I would say not to reveal himself- if we already have Amandil making himself known we're giving away two roles! You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

Known innocents are always a headache for baddies, but I do share some reluctance in having two Gifteds out so early in the game. Then again, there is Anarion. That's a lot on his shoulders, though.

[Pomegranate]

I'd also feel bad not voting - votes tend to be the main thing to be read and interpreted, and somehow only relying on seer powers would make me feel like I'm cheating

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Manwe

You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

Heh- just willing to float any idea to see if it'll give an edge.

And to Boro- yes, exactly, that's what I mean about Elendil electing not to have a Night 1 dream. Strategically he may have thought it better to play it safe and wait for Amandil to show up etc. I think really it's down to personality.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Elendil gets his dream result from the Moddess, and shares them with the person of their choice, right?

Nope. Elendil doesn't see any results. He chooses the dreamer and the dream and then it's out of his hands. He gets nothing. It's a very interesting role.

Originally Posted by Eomer

About Isildur's power to save a lynchee, what would happen if no-one in the village voted on Day One? Is this against the rules?

Hmmmm.... I'll have to think about that when I'm less distracted....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nope. Elendil doesn't see any results. He chooses the dreamer and the dream and then it's out of his hands. He gets nothing. It's a very interesting role.

The missing link. I was stuck on this from the Admin Thread:

Every Night [Elendil] reveals the role of one other player to a third player.

By "reveals the role", I was reading that Elendil himself would know what he revealed. All righty then.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And to Boro- yes, exactly, that's what I mean about Elendil electing not to have a Night 1 dream. Strategically he may have thought it better to play it safe and wait for Amandil to show up etc. I think really it's down to personality.

True, but if there was a Night 1 recipient it would be easy enough for Elendil to check if Amandil reveals today. Send the Night 1 recipient to Amandil, and if KM then the possible damage would be minimized. If not, then Elendil knows he can trust the dream sent to the Night 1 recipient.

Edit: crossed with Shasta...well then

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1?

This is an interesting idea to entertain, but we can't really do much about it, and it won't affect us until some sort of reveal.