Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.

Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?

For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.

Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

The other part of it is that Lothlorien is the elves in their own element. In their own natural kingdom. Rivendell is just a refuge.
As Sam puts it.

They're all elves enough, but they are not all the same. Now these folk are not wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than the Hobbits in the Shire.-LOTR

That said the magic in Rivendell is different. It is a perfect house.

“Rivendell was the perfect house, whether you liked food or story-telling or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear and sadness.”

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

Of course Aragorn would protect them no matter what, but at the same time people want to be associated with his kingdom. There is one thing being a family friend, but it is another thing being adopted into the family.

With Arwen the Sindar are likely to view it as a continuation of Thingol's rule. The Numenoreans on ME did a similar thing with Elendil. Accepting Elendil as king was a way to hark back to the days of Elros.

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

When it comes to Dale and the Mountain, it is outright stated they accepted Aragorn's sovereignty.

Arwen is Queen of the Elves. A title not claimed by anyone since Thingol. It obvious has more meaning than the a courtesy.

I have already mentioned how being part of a kingdom is often more attractive than just being a friend. If only for a short while being ruled under Thingol's heir would remind the Sindar of the old days, of Dior and Thingol.

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

Well that was her title and it means she was in a realistic way. To dismiss the text when it clearly spells it out is to go against what the author is telling us. Nobody had claimed such a title on ME since Thingol.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

Tuor leads the exiles of Gondolin and rules them.
Turin all but in name rules Nargothrond.
Dior one of the Half-elven actually is king in name and actuality of Doriath.

The elves are not rushing to become part of Gondor. They are joining the united alliance and accepting Arwen as their Queen.

Tuor and Turin despite ruling had no legitimate claim to the kingship. Dior does and all the Sindar acknowledge him as Thingol's heir and king. The same applies to Arwen.

Elendil and the Prince of Dol Amroth is the perfect example. Actually the Princes of Dol Amroth even accept Isildur and Anarion due to them being heirs of Elros. Arwen is the heir of Thingol, the heir of Finarfin, the Heir of Elwe and the heir of Fingolfin.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

No Rohan and the Shire had mutual relationships, without being under the crown. This seems to be a different case with Dale and the Mountain. They want to be under the crown. People have their pride and they want to be associated with winners. For hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman empire, any claim to rule most of western Europe was based on descent from Rome.

As for the elves they would not just be accepting a winner, but harking back to their glory days. By accepting the heir of Thingol, who had once taken the title King of Elves.
[QUOTE]
Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?[/QUOTE[
No, but it does not mean what you think it does. Though in that context the 'hearts' and 'minds' of men mean the same thing. It is the ability to read men and judge how they act and want to act. Galadriel had a special talent for this.

For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

Simply, because she is great, noble and fair is a reason to let her rule. The elves of Nargothrond give Turin the rule of the city for such reasons. That apart there is also her rightful descent as heir to Thingol and the memory of Luthien.

Why did Thingol adopt Turin if not for the bravery of Hurin? Why did the elves accept Dior as king if not for the deeds of Luthien, Beren and Thingol.

In Arwen even for a briefest of moments was a chance to recall the glory of Doriath when Luthien was there. The palace in Mirkwood, is but a cheap copy of Menegroth.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

Power no matter whether it being innate, political or physical is in the what you can do in a certain area. It means being the best in the field.

Greatness is linked to more to what you achieved, how you are perceived and power is mixed in there too. The next Prince of Dol Amroth will immediately become a greater noble than Faramir when he takes the principality.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

The difference is that Arwen is not some neighbouring monarch. She is the rightful heir Thingol. She looks like Luthien.

Many times in history countries have accepted kings from other lands, because they were the rightful heir. England and Scotland were eventually united, because King James was heir of England and Scotland. England happily accepted a Scottish King. There are many examples of this across history.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

Mirkwood is ruled by the Sindar and would have a mixed population. They accepted a Sindar to rule them once, why would they complain when an even greater Sindar accepted by their king. To see Arwen is to be reminded of Luthien. The hatred Thranduil bears for the dwarves is linked to the fall of Doriath.

Look at the modern example of Prince Michael of Kent and how he is courted in Russia due to his resemblance to the Tsar. The situation is infinitely greater with Arwen, who resembles the greatest and most loved out of all elves.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

Yes and so why would they argue if Thranduil wanted to accept Arwen as his queen? Though again this is moot, because Arwen IS the Queen of Elves. Arguing about how this happened and why is another thing, but it is a fact. Arwen was the Queen of Elves. Not a particular area, but of elves.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

No it was not attacked, but we are told that it has enough power to withstand him for a while. So if Sauron had reached Lindon then they would be able to hold out. Since they did not have an powers as great as Glorfindel, Elrond or Galadriel there or a great elven ring, it says a lot about the numbers they must have had.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

You could say that, but you would be going against the text. Silmaril enraged Carcharoth is mightier than Glaurung and the mightiest thing that Morgoth let loose until Ancalagon. We have no idea of how mighty Ancalagon's spirit, but overall he was the most powerul thing.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

The point is he was involved in deeds she had no part. He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

This is true, but the abilities are certainly linked and even more so when it comes to elves. Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood. The Dunedain of the North have this ability too. They are able to see the future. Aragorn sees that Elrond will soon leave ME, Gandalf will die etc. Only Cirdan exceeded Elrond, because of a special gift he received by sacrificing his desires, honour and happiness for th Valar.

When talking about Cirdan, who had this gift to see the future further than Elrond this is said.

'He (Cirdan) is said to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth- Later Writings, The Peoples of Middle Earth

From that moment Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other elves in Middle Earth-Later Writings, the People of Middle Earth

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

No I look at the text and try to examine what it says without bias. Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.
And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.
Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.
Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

Again if you want to discuss this in detail I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar. I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Aragorn was not completely a man and this is solely why he can perform Elvish magic. It is why he can see into the future and his ancestors could make blades with spells. Why else do you think Aragorn takes the sons of Elrond with him to heal? Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.

Saruman was the leader of the Istari. For good or for ill he was Saruman the White. For Gandalf to take over leadership even of the White Council without any reason would be usurping power that did not belong to him. You will notice it is a theme of Tolkien that trying to gain more power than is yours naturally is evil and usually backfires. While those that are humble often end up gaining more.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor.

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].



Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.



From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Nothing here says he was an elf. Quite the opposite. He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

The Halfevel are never included when the elves are mentioned. Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf. Legolas does not fear the Paths of the Dead, but we must assume the Sons of Elrond did.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

There's the point. Elrond and Elros always remained Half-elven and had powers of both races. Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man, but a descendant of Luthien.

'Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Luthien’-letter 155

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Nothing here says he was an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The difference

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador.

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin?

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron.

She sure did.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep

Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Exactly.

Surely. Then, now, show me where I said defeating someone means you are of equal power. Thanks.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel obviously did not remain

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

he died and had to return

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

but he did have the greater rank

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned?

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Please point to me where he is called an Elf? I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves. Look at the quotes you are providing. Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are. Anymore than it would be correct to say that Luthien was now a WOMAN in the sense she was a female of the Race of Men. I have provided quotes several times here showing that Elrond was never called an elf so I am going to leave it there. Choose to ignore them if you wish.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

No it does not, because Elrond is given similar description. Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves. Abandoning your elvish rights as Tolkien says did not make Luthien anything other than an Elf. The Half-Elven would remain Half-elves no matter what their fate was.

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

You are ignoring what Tolkien. Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal. Luthien was a mortal Elf, Tuor an immortal man and Elrond and immortal Half-elf.

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress? Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Does not matter we are told that it would be one if not the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there, but you don't seem to be keen on actually going by what Tolkien tells us.

'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes at present until all else is conquered.'

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

Yes and where they wanted to go was Rivendell. It does not take 3 years to ravage a small group of Elves. You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

A better rule is never leave an army at your back. The text implies that Sauron was besieging Rivendell from the amount of time we know he spent in Eriador.

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

How do you gain the mastery of an area without defeating your enemies. How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

It's just common sense. You think the small bands of men he was facing were a greater threat than Elrond? Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon, Sauron was invading when the Numenoreans drove him back.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

So you do think Sauron took 3 years clearing up small groups of men? You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell? Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind. He was not happy to leave enemies at his back, but attempted to take Moria. He could not get in and only then did he move on. You now want Sauron to abandon the tactics he employed prior and suddenly leave Rivendell unmolested. Ultimately not taking Rivendell almost cost him his life. It was being caught in the pincer that led to him narrowly escaping. Ironically history repeated itself with the Witch King of Angmar. He too failed to take Rivendell and was caught between a hammer and an anvil.

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

I said in Eriador. No quote is needed unless you truly believe that groups of men and small bands of elves were a bigger threat than Elrond.

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

Greatest does not mean more powerful. Tolkein makes many distinctions between the two.

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

Yes Ecthelion would be boosted, but not to the same extent as Glorfindel, because Glorfindel's sacrifice played a vital part in Earendil' survival.

'More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge in the Mouth of Sirion. Though he could not have known the importance of this ( and would have defended them had they been fugitives of any rank) this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.'-POME

Glorfindel unwillingly had played a vital part in saving ME and therefore was rewarded.

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Well if he was one of the stronger elves already close in power to the strongest and then had his powers GREATLY enhanced it's no wonder he becomes the strongest of the Elves alive.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

Feanor was not jumped and had companions. He was dying of his wounds. Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective. Elendil was a highly capable man equal to the princes of the Noldor.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

And as you said either was Feanor. In the end he was defeated and unable to kill them.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power. Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

In his latest works there is no doubt, who i the greatest of the Eldar.

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME
[QUOTE]
Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.[/QUOTE}
Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

Twisting Tolkien's words to try and fit your meaning is not going to help. Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath. He died prior to it and only came later as an emissary to help in the wars against Sauron.

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age? Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel. As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

Even very late on Tolkien still had Glorfindel returning at in the 3rd Age after spending 'from the First Age, through to the Second Age to the end of the First millennium of the Third Age; before he returned to Middle Earth.'-POME

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate, because the text obviously states that not even Glorfindel could do this, but it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

'and was one (the most powerful one it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell'-POME

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank.

It's a mixture of both and with Tolkien the two were usually entwined. More often than not the greatest captain is also the one with the highest rank. There are some exceptions like with Maeglin, but for the majority of the time it will be true like with Fingolfin, Fingon, Elendil, Aragorn etc

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

AS I have said this was not the case at the time Tolkien wrote the other note. Nor have you mentioned anything about Glorfindel having power close to Olorin. Glorfindel was a special case alongide the Istari and was sent to battle Sauron.

He had an 'air of special power and sanctity' around him.

It's for this reason we can understand 'why Glorfindel seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'.

'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?...<--snip-->...'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

Shelob was more beautiful than Arwen. Treebeard was more beautiful than Shelob, and Galadriel smelled of Dwarves, so that made her short. Maia can be smelled into Shelobs if Ungoliant did have a bottom to her bottomless greed. So, Shelob must have been more bottomless (therefore beautiful) than Arwen.

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

After reading 100, billion pages about Feanor being the 'every-thing-est', only today, some 30 years later, I go and find all this stuff about Galadriel now being Feanor's rival -- as the 'everything-est' but in different areas.

I highly don't recommend getting stuck on the '-estest' or '-ighty-est' or best-est-test-est- *screams* because now Arwen is the 'fairest' but I thought it was Luthien. Then I saw Galadriel was that--so I got so confused, that I decided that Shelob was the fairest. It's not fair, really, that spiders should be so discriminated against. I'm sure Shelob would rank fairly high in the arachnid world's equivalent of 'Miss Universe'

*screams*

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?

It is said that he is an Elf, or of the Eldar.

"Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind" [RotK, App. A]

"Elrond chose to be among the Elves." [Letter #153]

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves.

This is the quote you gave:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

First of all, Arwen never chose to be an Elf, which makes your quote irrelevant. Secondly, the quote you gave about Arwen, who never chose to be an Elf, is not about Elrond NOT BEING an Elf. Try again please.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Again, they were both Half-elven due to their descent, ""in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] However, since they were given a choice to choose their doom, that of Men or of Elves, Elrond chose that of Elven-kind and Elros that of Man-kind. Here's an interesting passage to that effect about the effect the choice had on the Half-elven, at least in the case of Elros:

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the 'seeking else-whither,' as the Eldar called it, the 'weariness' or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

In effect, Elros became a Man, and in like manner Elrond an Elf. Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry, they came from both Men and Elves, but they were given the choice to become either Man or Elf, and both chose one of these Dooms or Fates.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Although you are quoting texts from the Hobbit that are written before LotR was conceived, if you want to be fair, Elrond is given various qualities in that quote, even of Dwarves and of Summer.

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." [The Hobbit, ch. 3, p. 51]

In the History of the Hobbit, by John Ratliff it is said,

"The reference only two chapters before to Beren and Lúthien’s activities of less than a century ago – a mere nothing in the elvish scheme of things – and the very presence of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside ‘to see the elves’ dance and sing) and seems not to have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long-lived at this point, argues against a long gap in time between Gondolin’s fall and Mr. Baggins’ adventure... By that scheme, Mr. Baggins’ unexpected party would have occurred no more than 14 years after the fall of Thangorodrim, which is clearly exceedingly improbable. These difficulties probably led to Tolkien’s deletion of the references to Beren and Lúthien’s adventure, which together with Elrond’s undefined status and nature enable Gondolin and its ruin to recede into the distant, legendary past." [ch. 3 Rivendell]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are.

I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted portion of my text you responded to. I never even made mention of anyone changing their destiny after death.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

He remained Half-elven by ancestry, but he became an Elf when he chose his Doom or Fate, just as Elros became a Man after he chose his Fate.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves.

Elrond is said to be an Elf.

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal.

Half-elven by ancestry, but a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress?

No, you're saying I am, nothing new there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Like Prato in 1512? What mean you?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Does not matter

Yes it does, so I repeat, "Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there

Where? Quotes please. It is said, "and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power too, of another kind, in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege" [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 1, p. 269] There is no mention of Rivendell standing last due to its power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

Sauron was marching his way across Eriador to "take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings" [UT, part ll, ch. 4] Though he "attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" as he made his way from the south of Eriador, his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon" which was basically what he was on his way to doing while clearing a path and "ravaging as he went".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

A better rule is never leave an army at your back.

Which is why he left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] He was not going to sit there and focus all his energies on a siege of Rivendell when "his immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] The siege was not laid to overrun Rivendell. So, I'm not saying he did not leave a siege but rather he left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." You're saying he left it to overrun Rivendell, I'm saying he left it "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

Because their immediate and main purpose was to take out Sauron, who was there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon

Which is not the same as "it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon". Fighting on the borders of Lindon is not invading Lindon. Again I ask you where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon. Sauron, "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Lindon was across the river. He did not invade Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

It is said, "in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." This even with a weakened force that Sauron brought to get the Rings. That was his immediate purpose, and the reason he left another force besieging Rivendell was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take over Rivendell. Show me where it says the purpose of the siege was otherwise.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take Rivendell.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] since "his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind.

To take the Rings.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest does not mean more powerful.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

I have no idea where you are going with this. You're bringing all this other stuff up when all I said was that Glorfindel was not the only Elf to slay a Maia. You don't need to defend so hard that he was a powerful Elf. I never denied he was. All I said was, "I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this." You're going on Glorfindel being the most powerful because of a text that says he "was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandlad had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer." [POM-E, ch. 8] This indicates uncertainty through the use of "it would seem". I'm of the opinion that all this means is that even though Glorfindel is reborn there were still others of comparable power who were not reborn, so far as we know, who were sent out with him and it does not definitely mean he was the most powerful.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

How was it a stalemate when he got killed and Gothmog beat him? Do you know what stalemate means? Gothmog and the other Balrog won hence no stalemate. He was alone, they jumped him, Gothmog crushed his skull and they partied on his corpse.

"Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective.

It most certainly does as it implies he was not a Man to be messed with, and if he was it was to your detriment.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power.


Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

Luthien is the greatest due to her deeds with Beren and all the descendants of Luthien, whose line shall never fail as Legolas says, & "Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME

This being a note appended to, "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor" [POM-E, The Shibboleth of Feanor] in reference to Fëanor/Galadriel.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

[Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

Beren took a Silmaril from Morgoth, not Luthien, "he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril." [Sil., ch. 19, p. 219]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath.

The quote was not about those who remained from the War of Wrath. In fact the quote comes several pages after we begin with, "Thus began the third Age of the World" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 365] Glorfindel was one of the Elves who remained in M-E, and those who remained in M-E either were born there, or came from Aman as Galadriel and Glorfindel did [twice].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age?

You do realize that not only myself, but you, are taking the texts that have Glorfindel coming early in the 2nd Age? You're backed into a corner. Please don't squirm, work what we came to the party with. Let's be open and honest, you are consistently bringing up how Glorfindel played a huge part in the battle with Sauron in the 2nd Age where he came to aid Elrond. Or do you really want to drop all that to switch it all up and now only work with "up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age"? It's up to you buddy.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

Show me that the quote referred to Elves who remained after the War of Wrath exclusively.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel.

To Frodo who had met Glorfindel, correct? Also an audience only familiar with about 3 Elves by name in LotR until that point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

So you're going to switch from his heroics and helping Elrond in the 2nd Age to he only arrived in the 3rd? Really? You're trying to confuse me more with your nonsense? In POM-E we have C.T. say,

"The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Numenorean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea."

I believe you said in one of your posts, I'm not sure where I saw it, that you actually subscribe to this view, that he arrived in the 2nd Age to aid Elrond. Now you're switching it up.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate,

That is, however, what you said.

"Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates"

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

I'd say it's Glorfindel used because he is the Elf Frodo is familiar with, with whom his experience associates a great Elf to this point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

You're flip-flopping.