Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

It seems to me you main argument is that he is decended from Melian (so would Elwing and Dior more powerful than Galadriel too? I seriously doubt that) and teh passage, which meaning is not very clear and debatable. But he doesn´t show some deeds so one could assume that he has more power, Galadriel makes the more magical impression in Lotr. Galadriels home is next to the home of the enemy, while Elrond is hidden in a valley and not easy to find, nothing indicates that he uses the same magic Galadriel does to defend his home. He is shown to have control over the river, he is the best in healing, very wise and fought in a war, but sorry I see no evidence that supports your claim. Like I said, Galadriel did simarlar deeds with her destroying the walls of Dol Goldr and sending the mist, furthermore she gave the fellowship lembas, which was a magical deed to do and the phial, and from he phial I got the impression that this is not something everyone could do. Not to forget the mallon seed, there was some power in the dust and seed so that the shire was beautiful again.

The passage is very clear and even more so if you take into account the context of character. Elwing and Dior were powerful, but we really do not know much about them. Elwing was able to learn to fly and Dior dies very early before they can mature and grow in power. Dior at the least was a great warrior and one of the best elvish fighters.

Elrond has an enchantment around Rivendell making it difficult to find, is the greatest healer, has the second greatest foresight, the most lore and himself was a great warrior.

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

You are just making things up. She had no authority over the eagles. No one did.

She wanted Gandalf to be the head of the council which she summoned, not Elrond, but it seems that she was the one who wanted that. Already at that early point she sensed that Saruman would betray them and so mistrusted him from the beginning.

I don´t think Elrond or Cirdan (even if he have him his ring) would have voted for Gandalf, because that would go against the wishes of the Valar, but Galadriel, like always did not care, and was proven right.

For me it is really impressive that she was able to see the potential evil in him, which the Valar couldn´t, save Varda, she seemingly sensed the same.

Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council.

He said he felt the ring would be found.
He urged them to attack Dol Guldur earlier.

Elrond, however, respected the hierarchy the Valar had put in place as did Gandalf.

Not to forget the mirror of Galadriel. She was able to see the past, the presend and the future, that is a powerful tool. All that claims that she is inherntly more powerful than Elrond.

Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.
[QUOTE
Actually there is no need in proving that, you just have to look what Tolkien wrote of her in his later days, like for example the equal of Feanor, greatest of the Eldar of Valinor and mightiest and greatest of the Eldar in the third age quote and Elrond, even if half-elven, is included in that, because he made the decission to belong to the elves.[/QUOTE]
We have been over this and will not get into it again. I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently

The same with Rivendell, but Elrond held off the armies of Sauron.

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.

Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.

Elrond remained a great power through out Tolkien's legendarium. You cannot make an argument on things Tolkien may have done. We have the myths as they are laid out.

Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.

Again Elrond was never an Elf. We have a direct comparison in their innate power in wielding the ring and Sauron is said to be more powerful.

Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.

Gil-galad gave Elrond the ring long before he died. So yes he would still have received the mightiest of the rings.

[elbenprincess]

Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.

What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil

An Elven loremaster, the inventor of written letters. His invention was later bettered by Fëanor, but Rúmil remains famous as the originator of writing.

And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.

I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.

He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.

Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.

Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council. Where and when?

Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil
And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.

He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Tolkien took great pains to never mention Elrond as an elf. If you really want then I will provide several quotes showing you Elrond was never an Elf.

Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.

1. Elrond was not of the Noldor.
2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.


We have a direct comparison between the two and Elrond is shown to be stronger. You cannot refute this direct comparison.

Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.

Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.

[elbenprincess]

2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
Today 09:29 AM

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

Elrond was not of the Noldor

Of course he is not, but he can not match Feanor and if Galadriel is short behind Feanor, or even his equal then logic says us that Elrond is inferior to Galadriel. Method of elimination.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

This is my fault, I accidentally put the comma in the wrong place. I meant Gandalf the wisest of the Maiar accepted Saruman as the head.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

I don't remember reading anything of the sort and the Half-Elven are their ow separate race, at least until the elvish blood thinned to a great extent. Earendil especially just gets the best qualities from both races.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

The previous quote about Cirdan's knowledge of the future surpassing even Elrond in Middle Earth is enough to show he had greater knowledge of the future.

As for Lore he is said to be

Wise in all Lore

about the lay of Luthien.

and there are none now , except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.


where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt greatest of lore masters

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.

[Boromir88]

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:

"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you." he answered.~The White Rider

Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

"They answered a summons, as you heard" said Gimli. "Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred! Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess."
"Nay, Galadriel," said Legolas. "Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company through the North?"
"Yes, you have it," said Gimli. "The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires..."~The Passing of the Grey Company

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.~Appendix B: Tale of Years

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:
Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

Yes and Tolkien actually does talk about this.

The quote I provided was from Page 398, Myths transformed Morgoth's Ring.

I will provide the full quote, but will have to type it up.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it. Galadriel had an exceptional and the greatest skill for the first aspect.

Here are the quotes from Page 338 Shibboleth of Feanor, the People of Middle Earth.

From her (Galadriel) earliest years she had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

He continues about how pride stopped her tuning back and she was still too proud to return. He goes on about how only when the One Ring came into her possession did she finally have the means to gain what she wanted in her youth.

It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion over Middle Earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test she departed from Middle Earth forever.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.




There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.

Lothlorien still has a much greater population and army than Rivendell. That apart people ignore how Sauron DID actually come to Rivendell and was still unable to conquer it. This was Sauron with the One Ring and Elrond without Vilya.

That apart the quote does not take into account Sauron unnaturally empowering one of his servants. The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.

Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?

For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.

Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

The other part of it is that Lothlorien is the elves in their own element. In their own natural kingdom. Rivendell is just a refuge.
As Sam puts it.

They're all elves enough, but they are not all the same. Now these folk are not wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than the Hobbits in the Shire.-LOTR

That said the magic in Rivendell is different. It is a perfect house.

“Rivendell was the perfect house, whether you liked food or story-telling or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear and sadness.”

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

Of course Aragorn would protect them no matter what, but at the same time people want to be associated with his kingdom. There is one thing being a family friend, but it is another thing being adopted into the family.

With Arwen the Sindar are likely to view it as a continuation of Thingol's rule. The Numenoreans on ME did a similar thing with Elendil. Accepting Elendil as king was a way to hark back to the days of Elros.

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

When it comes to Dale and the Mountain, it is outright stated they accepted Aragorn's sovereignty.

Arwen is Queen of the Elves. A title not claimed by anyone since Thingol. It obvious has more meaning than the a courtesy.

I have already mentioned how being part of a kingdom is often more attractive than just being a friend. If only for a short while being ruled under Thingol's heir would remind the Sindar of the old days, of Dior and Thingol.

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

Well that was her title and it means she was in a realistic way. To dismiss the text when it clearly spells it out is to go against what the author is telling us. Nobody had claimed such a title on ME since Thingol.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

Tuor leads the exiles of Gondolin and rules them.
Turin all but in name rules Nargothrond.
Dior one of the Half-elven actually is king in name and actuality of Doriath.

The elves are not rushing to become part of Gondor. They are joining the united alliance and accepting Arwen as their Queen.

Tuor and Turin despite ruling had no legitimate claim to the kingship. Dior does and all the Sindar acknowledge him as Thingol's heir and king. The same applies to Arwen.

Elendil and the Prince of Dol Amroth is the perfect example. Actually the Princes of Dol Amroth even accept Isildur and Anarion due to them being heirs of Elros. Arwen is the heir of Thingol, the heir of Finarfin, the Heir of Elwe and the heir of Fingolfin.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

No Rohan and the Shire had mutual relationships, without being under the crown. This seems to be a different case with Dale and the Mountain. They want to be under the crown. People have their pride and they want to be associated with winners. For hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman empire, any claim to rule most of western Europe was based on descent from Rome.

As for the elves they would not just be accepting a winner, but harking back to their glory days. By accepting the heir of Thingol, who had once taken the title King of Elves.
[QUOTE]
Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?[/QUOTE[
No, but it does not mean what you think it does. Though in that context the 'hearts' and 'minds' of men mean the same thing. It is the ability to read men and judge how they act and want to act. Galadriel had a special talent for this.

For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

Simply, because she is great, noble and fair is a reason to let her rule. The elves of Nargothrond give Turin the rule of the city for such reasons. That apart there is also her rightful descent as heir to Thingol and the memory of Luthien.

Why did Thingol adopt Turin if not for the bravery of Hurin? Why did the elves accept Dior as king if not for the deeds of Luthien, Beren and Thingol.

In Arwen even for a briefest of moments was a chance to recall the glory of Doriath when Luthien was there. The palace in Mirkwood, is but a cheap copy of Menegroth.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

Power no matter whether it being innate, political or physical is in the what you can do in a certain area. It means being the best in the field.

Greatness is linked to more to what you achieved, how you are perceived and power is mixed in there too. The next Prince of Dol Amroth will immediately become a greater noble than Faramir when he takes the principality.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

The difference is that Arwen is not some neighbouring monarch. She is the rightful heir Thingol. She looks like Luthien.

Many times in history countries have accepted kings from other lands, because they were the rightful heir. England and Scotland were eventually united, because King James was heir of England and Scotland. England happily accepted a Scottish King. There are many examples of this across history.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

Mirkwood is ruled by the Sindar and would have a mixed population. They accepted a Sindar to rule them once, why would they complain when an even greater Sindar accepted by their king. To see Arwen is to be reminded of Luthien. The hatred Thranduil bears for the dwarves is linked to the fall of Doriath.

Look at the modern example of Prince Michael of Kent and how he is courted in Russia due to his resemblance to the Tsar. The situation is infinitely greater with Arwen, who resembles the greatest and most loved out of all elves.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

Yes and so why would they argue if Thranduil wanted to accept Arwen as his queen? Though again this is moot, because Arwen IS the Queen of Elves. Arguing about how this happened and why is another thing, but it is a fact. Arwen was the Queen of Elves. Not a particular area, but of elves.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

No it was not attacked, but we are told that it has enough power to withstand him for a while. So if Sauron had reached Lindon then they would be able to hold out. Since they did not have an powers as great as Glorfindel, Elrond or Galadriel there or a great elven ring, it says a lot about the numbers they must have had.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

You could say that, but you would be going against the text. Silmaril enraged Carcharoth is mightier than Glaurung and the mightiest thing that Morgoth let loose until Ancalagon. We have no idea of how mighty Ancalagon's spirit, but overall he was the most powerul thing.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

The point is he was involved in deeds she had no part. He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

This is true, but the abilities are certainly linked and even more so when it comes to elves. Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood. The Dunedain of the North have this ability too. They are able to see the future. Aragorn sees that Elrond will soon leave ME, Gandalf will die etc. Only Cirdan exceeded Elrond, because of a special gift he received by sacrificing his desires, honour and happiness for th Valar.

When talking about Cirdan, who had this gift to see the future further than Elrond this is said.

'He (Cirdan) is said to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth- Later Writings, The Peoples of Middle Earth

From that moment Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other elves in Middle Earth-Later Writings, the People of Middle Earth

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

No I look at the text and try to examine what it says without bias. Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.
And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.
Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.
Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

Again if you want to discuss this in detail I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar. I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Aragorn was not completely a man and this is solely why he can perform Elvish magic. It is why he can see into the future and his ancestors could make blades with spells. Why else do you think Aragorn takes the sons of Elrond with him to heal? Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.

Saruman was the leader of the Istari. For good or for ill he was Saruman the White. For Gandalf to take over leadership even of the White Council without any reason would be usurping power that did not belong to him. You will notice it is a theme of Tolkien that trying to gain more power than is yours naturally is evil and usually backfires. While those that are humble often end up gaining more.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor.

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].



Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.



From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Nothing here says he was an elf. Quite the opposite. He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

The Halfevel are never included when the elves are mentioned. Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf. Legolas does not fear the Paths of the Dead, but we must assume the Sons of Elrond did.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

There's the point. Elrond and Elros always remained Half-elven and had powers of both races. Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man, but a descendant of Luthien.

'Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Luthien’-letter 155