Boromir's Death

[Morsul the Dark]

Trying to rmember how I took Boromir's death in the book is tough.

I Think his death was far more sympathetic the second time around. The first time like maany I feel I had a "Well, that's what you get." Sort of attitude for it.

After reading about Faramir and Denethor etc etc... I think Pride was cultivated in Boromir as he was clearly the favorite son and probably always praised. Of course he'd think he could wield the ring for his people. I never really took Faramir's lack of desiring the ring to be a overtly wise action(that may have been part of it) I always saw a downtroddin Son who was never good enough why would he have the confidence to try to wield the ring.

I think Eomer's line too is a bit, shall I say overconfident? He didn't face down the ring and It's temptation head on it's easy to say you could deny it without knowing its full power and draw.

I think in the movies Boromir was portrayed as more antagonistic but mostly because subtlty is often lost onscreen. I think he was supposed to be less liked thereby gaining that all important redemption factor with Merry and Pippin.

[Lalwendë]

Good topic!

Firstly, it wasn't my copy of A Game of Thrones that got flung at the wall, but my copy of A Storm Of Swords. And there was a lot of swearing. Of that, I will comment no more or I might spoil it for anyone looking forward to the next series of it on TV.

Back when I was 12, many years ago, my brother's copy of The Two Towers remained unflung at the death of Boromir but I was shocked and I was quite upset about it. I remember many years ago on here having a discussion about how many of us, when we were youngsters and read the books for the first time, were inspired to draw a picture of Boromir stuck full of arrows and being comforted by Aragorn.

I got the impression, and still do, that Boromir was not to be blamed for what he did, he was to be forgiven. All through the journey to that point there's a growing sense that he has slightly less pure aims than Aragorn, but he doesn't become sinister in any way until he loses his temper with Frodo. And that's how it comes across, as a Man losing his temper. A man full of pride brought down by it. Aragorn reminds us not to blame him for his downfall, and blames himself. Whether this is heartfelt or maybe Aragorn being self-righteous in the extreme, he says:

Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer?

It's interesting to compare him to Eomer, but I think this has a lot to do with cultural difference. At one point in his tussle with Frodo, Boromir reminds him of his lineage:

If any mortals have claim to the
Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings.

Boromir has been raised to be proud, he is descended from Numenoreans, and he was effectively going to be the ruler of Minas Tirith - until he saw that Aragorn was back. He probably genuinely thinks he has the strength and right to decide on what happens to the Ring, and furthermore is driven by either jealousy or a need to 'prove' himself against Aragorn (who might seem quite smugly 'perfect' to him, let's admit ). Eomer on the other hand is from a different background, raised to be a captain, a soldier. Rohan does not have the same 'high' history, and the people are less likely to be impressed by or interested in things such as 'magic Rings'. They are interested in their horses and their land.

As a side point, my take on Ned Stark is that he put too much stock in his precious 'honour' and as a result left his own children vulnerable - he's not the heroic figure he is often thought to be, but stubborn.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Boromir has been raised to be proud, he is descended from Numenoreans, and he was effectively going to be the ruler of Minas Tirith - until he saw that Aragorn was back. He probably genuinely thinks he has the strength and right to decide on what happens to the Ring, and furthermore is driven by either jealousy or a need to 'prove' himself against Aragorn (who might seem quite smugly 'perfect' to him, let's admit ). Eomer on the other hand is from a different background, raised to be a captain, a soldier. Rohan does not have the same 'high' history, and the people are less likely to be impressed by or interested in things such as 'magic Rings'. They are interested in their horses and their land.

I was deeply disturbed with Boromir's betrayal of Frodo when I first read the book, but then just as quickly, I gained a great respect for Boromir when he got control of himself and protected Merry and Pippin at the cost of his own life. It was this sacrifice that gained him redemption, and made him a conflicted hero in my book, far more interesting than the impossibly noble Aragorn.

From my perspective, it seemed that, in addition to your comments, Lal, Boromir was also deeply affected - unmanned perhaps - while in Lothlorien. He was forced to look at his own conflicted self and it unnerved him, and then he saw how Aragorn was unaffected and treated with high regard by Galadriel. This, in addition to his love of country (some would say overblown patriotism) and respect for his father - with both Denethor and Gondor heading for crushing defeat - that caused Boromir to become unhinged. But the qualities everyone admired in Faramir returned for Boromir when he willingly gave up his life.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Boromir has been raised to be proud, he is descended from Numenoreans, and he was effectively going to be the ruler of Minas Tirith - until he saw that Aragorn was back. He probably genuinely thinks he has the strength and right to decide on what happens to the Ring, and furthermore is driven by either jealousy or a need to 'prove' himself against Aragorn (who might seem quite smugly 'perfect' to him, let's admit ). Eomer on the other hand is from a different background, raised to be a captain, a soldier. Rohan does not have the same 'high' history, and the people are less likely to be impressed by or interested in things such as 'magic Rings'. They are interested in their horses and their land.

This is exactly what I mean, though. Boromir was really only a "Middle Man", but his culture/nationality/race/what-have-you was "High" - so there is a tension between his upbringing and his own understanding - a nurture vs nature conflict, if you will. So that part of him which was "High" was capable of desiring the Ring and recognising its power, but as a "Middle Man" he lacked the wisdom and spiritual stature to perceive its evil, reject it and overcome temptation until the bitter end.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I think Pride was cultivated in Boromir as he was clearly the favorite son and probably always praised

Undoubtedly. Somehow for me he has always read as something of a braggart and thus not a terribly sympathetic character. While I don't any longer view Boromir's death as comeuppance for his attempt to take the Ring from Frodo, I do still struggle with feeling sympathy for the character. I think for me personally, this mitigates to some extent feelings of sadness or shock I would feel for a more sympathetic character.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I got the impression, and still do, that Boromir was not to be blamed for what he did, he was to be forgiven.

Even though I struggle with sympathy with the character, I am in complete agreement that Boromir should be forgiven his failing. From the tone of the other characters (especially Aragorn) they clearly had sympathy for the trial Boromir had endured.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

He probably genuinely thinks he has the strength and right to decide on what happens to the Ring, and furthermore is driven by either jealousy or a need to 'prove' himself against Aragorn

This is a very good point, though to me it points up his unwillingness to listen to others, even if it makes his actions understandable.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As a side point, my take on Ned Stark is that he put too much stock in his precious 'honour' and as a result left his own children vulnerable - he's not the heroic figure he is often thought to be, but stubborn.

I agree to a large extent. However, he could still have salvaged the situation if he had left town when he had originally wanted to or if he hadn't relied on Littlefinger.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But the qualities everyone admired in Faramir returned for Boromir when he willingly gave up his life.

I always kind of had the impression (possibly mistaken) that Boromir despaired and suicided by orc. However, as I have said, I have a rather negative impression of the character.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Even though I struggle with sympathy with the character, I am in complete agreement that Boromir should be forgiven his failing. From the tone of the other characters (especially Aragorn) they clearly had sympathy for the trial Boromir had endured.

Since Frodo later says that even Gollum merited forgiveness (after committing myriad more vile deeds than did Boromir), I agree that Boromir's death was not necessarily a punishment. Perhaps it accomplished the greater purpose of removing Boromir as a threat to the Quest (which he had clearly become), as well as releasing him from the Ring's grip. This idea is somewhat reminiscent of Isildur's death. He was even more firmly in its power than was Boromir, and could have wrought great harm as a Ring-lord. Both he and Boromir were possibly eliminated as threats to a greater perspective, and at the same time both delivered from the Ring's power forever.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I always kind of had the impression (possibly mistaken) that Boromir despaired and suicided by orc. However, as I have said, I have a rather negative impression of the character.

No, I don't think he committed suicide. I see his death as more of a simple desire to do something positive to compensate for his attack on Frodo, with a lack of fear that he could die. He doesn't strike me as being very fearful of death, anyway.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

So that part of him which was "High" was capable of desiring the Ring and recognising its power, but as a "Middle Man" he lacked the wisdom and spiritual stature to perceive its evil, reject it and overcome temptation until the bitter end.

Isildur was not a Middle Man by a long shot and we are all familiar with his story of how he decided to keep the Ring against other counsel [Sil, p. 366]. Also the Numenoreans were High Men all and Sauron corrupted most of the island. They were in the habit of performing human sacrifices, tending to take the Faithful as those sacrifices, and they were against the Valar and the Elves who were always for them.

Boromir may not have been able to perceive its evil, but that would only make him less responsible than a High Man who would, like him, want the Ring, like his father. I'm just saying even the High Men could not all reject it and overcome its temptation and the only two that I know of who did were Faramir and Aragorn. Perhaps Elendil would have destroyed it had he lived, but I'm not sure. However, maybe temperament has a role to play in this as Boromir and Isildur seemed to have a fiery temperament and perhaps Elendil like Aragorn and Faramir would have rejected it.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Boromir may not have been able to perceive its evil, but that would only make him less responsible than a High Man who would, like him, want the Ring, like his father. I'm just saying even the High Men could not all reject it and overcome its temptation and the only two that I know of who did were Faramir and Aragorn. Perhaps Elendil would have destroyed it had he lived, but I'm not sure. However, maybe temperament has a role to play in this as Boromir and Isildur seemed to have a fiery temperament and perhaps Elendil like Aragorn and Faramir would have rejected it.

I don't mean to suggest that Boromir's stature is necessarily responsible, only that it might have limited his understanding. It's worth remembering that Boromir desired the Ring for its power. Isildur's rationale for keeping the Ring was as a weregild for the loss of his father and brother, just as Bilbo argued that he kept it because Gollum would have killed him otherwise. I'm not saying that their corruption was different, but Boromir, unlike people previously interested in the Ring, actively wanted to use it for its "true" purpose, the manufacture and maintenance of Power. This was a very "Middle" attitude to take: as Faramir suggests, they esteemed mastery and martial prowess above other skills, and the Ring was the ultimate weapon in that regard. I personally don't think it's so much a matter of wanting to keep the Ring as it is wanting to use it, and use it for its primary purpose (not just to become invisible and such). The Ringbearers each kept the Ring for a variety of reasons (of diverse validity) but Boromir wished to actually wield it, even though he had been told repeatedly and with emphasis that doing so would only achieve further ruin.
His circumstances were different to Isildur, of course, but Men like Aragorn and Faramir refused to use it. Faramir said "I do not wish for such triumphs." He was in the same situation as his brother, but of greater wisdom and stature.
In this way I don't think that Elendil, or Aragorn, or Faramir, or anyone else could have destroyed the Ring, because I'm fairly sure no one could have destroyed it voluntarily, but perhaps a High Man might at least be less inclined to use it even if they felt compelled (like anyone else) to keep it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't mean to suggest that Boromir's stature is necessarily responsible, only that it might have limited his understanding. It's worth remembering that Boromir desired the Ring for its power. Isildur's rationale for keeping the Ring was as a weregild for the loss of his father and brother, just as Bilbo argued that he kept it because Gollum would have killed him otherwise.

To me, that's merely an illustration of the way in which the Ring attacks the reason and restraint of those who come in contact with it: it calls to the individual, promising power to help them achieve their goals, however good they may seem (or actually be) to them.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In this way I don't think that Elendil, or Aragorn, or Faramir, or anyone else could have destroyed the Ring, because I'm fairly sure no one could have destroyed it voluntarily, but perhaps a High Man might at least be less inclined to use it even if they felt compelled (like anyone else) to keep it.

Since the three you name all declined the Ring, I think it clear they didn't trust themselves with it, which is pretty telling.