Origins of the Great Goblin

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even if Tolkien had indeed intended for Morgoth early on to be a creator (which I think is still debatable),

If you read the first five volumes of The History of Middle-earth, you will soon see that this is not really debatable: this is clearly Tolkien's intention. You have him use phrases stating that Morgoth “devised” the Orcs or “brought into being” their race. Christopher Tolkien is also explicit in relation to The Book of Lost Tales, saying that “There is no trace yet of the later view that ‘naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning’”. This later view enters into the mythology after Tolkien had finished The Lord of the Ring (Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 2 ‘The Annals of Aman’ §45 p. 74), and clearly in response to the development during the writing of LotR, which is also expressed in the letters from which you quoted.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

it seems clear the idea was abandoned later, possibly, as I said, out of a desire on the part of the author to avoid elevating the world's Prime Evil to a status on par with the True Creator.

Yes, as I said, Tolkien changed his ideas during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and that work therefore contains passages that are written based on the old view. Treebeard's statement is an example of this — regardless of what Tolkien said later, when he had changed his mind, Treebeard was stating the correct lore as Tolkien saw it when he wrote it. I suppose that Tolkien would have edited these passages more heavily if they had been wholly inconsistent with the later ideas, but knowing how his ideas evolved it is quite clear that the Rohan chapters are informed by the earlier conception of the origins of the Orcs. After he had finished writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien had clearly changed his conception of the Orcs and now considered them corrupted Eruhíni, and he decided, no later than ca. 1951, that they were corrupted from Elves caught early on, and t. This view was, however, not entirely without problems either, and when he went back to the Silmarillion mythology about 1959 he was very concerned with these problems. how could the corruption be inheritable? Were the perhaps nothing but mindless automata? Or were they perhaps to be considered beasts without fëar? Etc. Etc. These considerations are documented in the ‘Myths Transformed’ section (part 4) of Morgoth's Ring, and show that Tolkien was aware that his chosen solution was not perfect either, and he was searching for a way out. He always seems to come back to the idea of the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni (though not necessarily always Elves), but he is obviously not entirely happy with that choice either (particularly the question of their being irredeemable and their corruption being inheritable while they at the same time supposedly were free-willed and had fëar {roughly corresponding to the soul of Christian thinking}).

So, yes, Tolkien did abandon the idea that the Ainur > Valar could create a new race (though from pre-existing matter), but the idea was clearly present in the early history of the mythology and in the earlier parts of The Lord of the Rings.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, consider the situation of Morgoth's peer, Aulë. He did 'create' on his own, or at least made the attempt with the Dwarves. But that act was futile as a measure of creation. The Dwarves had no true life or fea until it was provided by the One. Otherwise, as he said to Aulë, the 'creations' would have had no independent thought or being, mere 'breathing meat'.

But the whole text describing the making of the Dwarves by Aulë’ is also quite late — after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, IIRC (there were some brief hints in earlier text that Aulë had made the Dwarves, but no details, and the simple statement that he had made them implies rather that there was no intervention by Eru).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for the wholesale, remorseless slaughter of the Orcs, I think it can be attributed to the length of time the 'good guys' had been dealing with them, which had led to a view of them as uncurable, implacable enemies.

Not according to the laws as described later, according to which the Orcs should always be spared if they surrendered:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not ‘made’ by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.

(Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 5 ‘Myths Transformed’, text X, p. 419)

Clearly many of the Orcs before the Hornburg and would have surrendered if they could: they were fleeing into the wood of huorns). Thus, IF we accept the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni, creatures with fëar, the whole way of dealing with the Orcs before Helm's Deep becomes inconsistent with the ethics described in the above passage, but also with the ethics later expounded by Faramir

War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.

Tolkien's Catholicism is not particularly obvious in the earliest parts of his legendarium — particularly in The Book of Lost Tales the basis is not particularly Catholic (beyond The Music of the Ainur with its monotheistic omnipotent and omniscient Creator). Tolkien himself wrote that The Lord of the Rings only became consciously Catholic in the revision, and this, in my considered opinion, marks the point when the whole mythology became consciously Catholic. Before the writing of LotR there is no hint of Tolkien being particularly concerned about staying consistent with his faith (the ability of the Ainur > Valar to actually create sapient creatures is a clear example), but after LotR he is clearly very conscientious about this; a factor that contributed to the whole Silmarillion project bogging down in endless niggling.

[Inziladun]

We may endlessly quibble over opposing ideas from Tolkien between early and later writings. It is enough for me that the most recent conceptions of Orcish origins considered them as 'counterfeits'. As that is in line with my own thoughts of Arda's cosmology, I'll stick to it.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It is enough for me that the most recent conceptions of Orcish origins considered them as 'counterfeits'. As that is in line with my own thoughts of Arda's cosmology, I'll stick to it.

The problem is that even that is not quite that simple, as shown in the ‘Myths Transformed’ section of Morgoth's Ring. Of course, if all you wish is to maintain your own view, then by all means, but I strongly advocate that we at least recognize that Tolkien's conception was rather more complex.

[Galin]

I also think the old idea was in place when Tolkien wrote the chapter Treebeard [Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but made by Morgoth out of stone and 'hatred' rather, not from Elves].


I can't date [precisely] when Tolkien penned Frodo's comments however [from The Land of Shadow IIRC], which seem to represent the major shift in thinking -- but when Tolkien returned to The Annals of Aman in the early 1950s, as first written the old concept was still in place. Then, and still in this phase of writing, comes the darker tale told in Eressea noted by Pengolodh [Orcs from Elves], but The Lord of the Rings -- the main story -- had already been written by this time.

As Troelsfo noted. Hello!

Tolkien's latest texts, after going over a number of variations when Orcs from Elves didn't seem to work well enough for him [although he still considered this], are about Orcs created from Men, with an adjusted chronology. This is text X, Morgoth's Ring. Christopher Tolkien will then mention two later notes which might only possibly raise the question as to whether or not Tolkien was once again changing his mind and moving away from Orcs created from Men -- these two later notes do not actually deny the main conception described in Text X however -- one note, for example, concerns only the point that JRRT spelled the word orks instead of orcs; and this may mean nothing more than a change in spelling rather than reflect another change in conception.

And in any case, an equally late note [to The Druedain, Unfinished Tales] once again has Elves stating that Morgoth made Orcs from various kinds of Men.

Well Troelsfo noted most of this anyway, but yes, so far I would agree that the old concept was in place during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, with Frodo's comments seemingly pointing to a change of mind at one stage -- possibly a change of mind again for the Annals -- or maybe Tolkien simply first 'updated' what was already there, without really giving too much thought...

... to updating

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Galin

I also think the old idea was in place when Tolkien wrote the chapter Treebeard [Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but made by Morgoth out of stone and 'hatred' rather, not from Elves].

Thank you, Galin (Hello!). One thing that I omitted in the earlier account is the influence of the McDonaldesque goblins of The Hobbit — when he began The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien would at some point have had to face the incongruities between the orcs/goblins of the earlier mythology and the goblins of The Hobbit — no matter how far we stretch things, I cannot see the the early Orcs as neither singing nor innovating (even innovating machines of war and torture). The later view of the Orcs bring them much better into line with the published goblins in The Hobbit.

Originally Posted by Galin

I can't date [precisely] when Tolkien penned Frodo's comments however [from The Land of Shadow IIRC], which seem to represent the major shift in thinking

That statement (“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.”) is in ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’ about which Christopher Tolkien notes that his “father returned to the story of Frodo and Sam more than three years after he had ‘got the hero into such a fix’ (as he said in a letter of November 1944, VIII.218) ‘that not even an author will be able to extricate him without labour and difficulty.’” (Sauron Defeated (HoMe 9), part 1 ch. II, p.18). In their J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide: Chronology, Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond explain, under the entry for 14 August — 14 September 1948, that Tolkien in period used his son Michael's farm in Woodcote as a retreat while Michael and family were on holiday, and that he there

makes two drafts for ‘The Tower of Kirith [later Cirith] Ungol’ (bk. VI, ch. 1 as published). He soon abandons the first, [...]; he makes significant changes and additions in the second, which as he proceeds becomes rough and in places only an outline. He then writes a fair copy, [...], which reaches to the end of the chapter. [...]. At some point he makes a second fair copy manuscript, and places with it the page from the first draft with the drawing of the Tower [...]

Minor details have been cut by me (‘[...]’)
Frodo's statement enters at the earliest in the first fair copy manuscript, denoted D in Christopher Tolkien's explanations in Sauron Defeated.

So all in all we can say within a week or so when precisely Tolkien made that statement: during his stay at Payables Farm in Woodcote, he would continue through to the abandoned epilogue, so I think it is a fair guess that he would have finished drafting ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’ during the first week of his stay.

Originally Posted by Galin

but when Tolkien returned to The Annals of Aman in the early 1950s, as first written the old concept was still in place. Then, and still in this phase of writing, comes the darker tale told in Eressea noted by Pengolodh [Orcs from Elves], but The Lord of the Rings -- the main story -- had already been written by this time.

I had completely forgotten about this in The Annals of Aman, thank you! Christopher Tolkien's comment to §127 of The Annals of Aman is quite lucid despite the additional complications brought about by Tolkien's shifting about of the timing of Morgoth's creation of the Orcs (in the last pre-LotR version of the Quenta Silmarillion, denoted the ‘QS’ in the History of Middle-earth series, Morgoth “brought into being the race of the Orcs” in mockery of the Elves after the Darkening of Valinor and his return to Middle-earth).

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien's latest texts, after going over a number of variations when Orcs from Elves didn't seem to work well enough for him [although he still considered this], are about Orcs created from Men, with an adjusted chronology. This is text X, Morgoth's Ring.

Aye — there are three texts on Orcs, VIII through X, and they are very much worth reading, particularly (at least in my opinion) for the philosophical deliberations. This, along with some other contemporary texts — particularly the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, show what Christopher Tolkien means when, in the foreword to The Silmarillion, he writes that in his father's later writings “mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations: from which arose incompatibilities of tone.” But that's an aside ... well, perhaps it is still tangentially connected, as the basic interest and intention is now completely different: Tolkien is now no longer preoccupied with the creation of mythology, but rather with theology and philosophy, making his mythology “the vehicle and depository of his profoundest reflections.” We are, in other words, trying to use writings to answer one type of question, while Tolkien wrote these things in an attempt to answer some fundamentally different questions, and his answers may well be incommensurable to the questions we are asking.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

That statement (“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.”) is in ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’...

Ah thank you Troelsfo. I mixed things up there [I think I mixed up The Land of Shadow with another quote in which the term Uru-hai is mentioned, but that's a different ball of twine]. Anyway you are correct, that's the statement I meant [Frodo's statement] and where it can be found.

... about which Christopher Tolkien notes that his “father returned to the story of Frodo and Sam more than three years after he had ‘got the hero into such a fix’ (as he said in a letter of November 1944, VIII.218) ‘that not even an author will be able to extricate him without labour and difficulty.’” (Sauron Defeated (HoMe 9), part 1 ch. II, p.18). In their J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide: Chronology, Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond explain, under the entry for 14 August — 14 September 1948, that Tolkien in period used his son Michael's farm in Woodcote as a retreat while Michael and family were on holiday, and that he there Minor details have been cut by me (‘[...]’)
Frodo's statement enters at the earliest in the first fair copy manuscript, denoted D in Christopher Tolkien's explanations in Sauron Defeated.

So all in all we can say within a week or so when precisely Tolkien made that statement: during his stay at Payables Farm in Woodcote, he would continue through to the abandoned epilogue, so I think it is a fair guess that he would have finished drafting ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’ during the first week of his stay.

Good digging! I'm perhaps wrong -- or didn't dig deep enough myself -- but I have a vague memory of not finding Frodo's statement in any of the draft texts represented in HME, so that while one could date the writing of this chapter with some certainty, does it remain possible that this statement [specifically] was a later addition at some unknown point?

I don't have Sauron Defeated at hand at the moment, but when you write: '... Frodo's statement enters at the earliest in the first fair copy manuscript, denoted D in Christopher Tolkien's explanations in Sauron Defeated.'

... does this rule out that it entered later? I'm just wondering if we could possibly have a scenario like:

A) Tolkien writes out the chapter but it doesn't yet include this statement [old idea still in place]

B) Tolkien begins new version of the Annals [Annals of Aman] [old idea still in place]

C) Darker tale from Eressea enters in revision to the Annals of Aman [Orcs thought to be from Elves]

D) At some point before the main story of The Return of the King goes to print, Tolkien adds Frodo's statement to this chapter.


That would seem [to me] a bit more 'tidy' as far as the external chronology goes, in conjunction with this change in thinking... but again I'm not sure it's possible and may be missing something.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Galin

Good digging! I'm perhaps wrong -- or didn't dig deep enough myself -- but I have a vague memory of not finding Frodo's statement in any of the draft texts represented in HME,

You're right, the statement is not there expressly.

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't have Sauron Defeated at hand at the moment, but when you write: '... Frodo's statement enters at the earliest in the first fair copy manuscript, denoted D in Christopher Tolkien's explanations in Sauron Defeated.'

... does this rule out that it entered later?

I suppose it doesn't rule it out explicitly, but I would say that it does rule it out implicitly.

Christopher Tolkien writes

Originally Posted by Sauron Defeated, p.26

From ‘“That's done it!” said Sam. “Now I've rung the front-door bell!”’ a draft text ('C') takes up. This is written in a script so difficult that a good deal of it would be barely comprehensible had it not been closely followed in the fair copy D.[12] The final story was now reached, and there is little to record of these texts.

and notes in note 12 that

Originally Posted by Sauron Defeated, p.30

The very rough draft C stops near the beginning of Sam's conversation with Frodo in the topmost chamber (RK p. 187), and from that point there are only isolated passages of drafting extant; but the latter part of D was much corrected in the act of writing, and was probably now to a large extent the primary composition.

After this, Christopher Tolkien goes on to note differences between texts C, D, the later fair copy E, and the final text without noting anything about Frodo's statement despite the focus he has given throughout the whole of The History of Middle-earth series to the matter of the origin of the Orcs, then I think it is reasonable to assume that if this statement had not been present in D when “the final story was [...] reached”, then he would have noted this.

Actually I am a little surprised that he doesn't note this point at all — I would have expected him to comment on this point, though at that point he might have had other things on his mind Still, if this statement not been present in text D, then I am certain that this would have been noted.

<snipping suggested chronology>

Originally Posted by Galin

That would seem [to me] a bit more 'tidy' as far as the external chronology goes, in conjunction with this change in thinking... but again I'm not sure it's possible and may be missing something.

I agree that it would be more tidy, and would have to acknowledge that the presentation in Sauron Defeated cannot entirely rule this out, though I think the odds are not in favour of it (the whole episode about Cirith Ungol, including the earlier discussions between Shagrat and Gorbag, seems to me to suggest this newer view — I can hardly imagine the earlier Orcs, created in mockery of the Elves by Morgoth from stone, having the kind of discussion that we are, through Sam, allowed to witness between these two captains. The evolutions of Tolkien's legendarium is, unfortunately, quite often not tidy — take the issue of the round vs. the flat world versions of the cosmogonic myth: we know that Tolkien was playing with both ideas during the time he wrote LotR and we can see traces of both in the text (the round-world version is best seen in e.g. Gimli's song about Durin in Moria: “No stain yet on the Moon was seen, / [...] / When Durin woke and walked alone.” Durin awoke in the First Age long before the rising of the Moon and the Sun according to the flat-world version).