Luthien weilding Vilya

[Belegorn]

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.

"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, and they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position."

Later on in Letter 246 we are told how the 2 of them rejected the One anyways. It then follows about how in wielding the Ring they would go about taking on Sauron as differing from Gandalf, who alone "might be expected to master him".

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know I want to get deep into this because for me there are too many variants from the rings as written, in this hypothesis that one might as well say if it were a different book it would be a different book... however I so agree that you have to take the superlatives with a pinch of salt especially when referencing drafts and versions not published by JRRT. Some characters didn't appear til later. However regardless I think Luthien would have been useless aa a ringbearer because she is essrntially passive and only acts when motivated by the need to fulfil her own desire.

[Pervinca Took]

I wouldn't call Luthien passive. I agree, though, that, highly heroic as her and Beren's deeds were, their motives were far less selfless than those of many others in The Silmarillion.

[Mithalwen]

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

[Pervinca Took]

Can't believe she really couldn't manage a twit like Thingol. I think she was just letting him think she couldn't get out of it, when all along she knew the opening spell.

I've always honoured Beren and Luthien's tale because I knew/read it was Tolkien's favourite - but it seems a little like the Romeo and Juliet tale of Middle-earth - and now in comfortable middle age, I find the latter a pair of rather selfish irritants. Beren and Luthien less so, but in the same semantic field. Then again, passionate young love (and how it blinds people to all else) is as true to real life as anything else in Tolkien's mythology. It has a rightful place there. I just admire other characters more (although as a younger person I probably felt differently).

[Mithalwen]

Having read the Carpenter biography and also the Carpenter Inklings book whick talks of the unhappiness at times of the Tolkiens marriage I have never thought of the story without thinking of poor Edith..being deified ain't all it is cracked up to be. And Beren and Luthien create such collateral damage in satifying their own wants. I always found Thingol and Melian's own love story far more impressive.

[Pervinca Took]

Arwen and Aragorn seem a lot maturer and more realistic, too. Also Arwen is someone I really feel for, even if she did rather imperiously scorn her husband's race as "wicked fools" until she learned what mortality was really like.

I suppose Beren and Luthien are more mythical - and more magically long ago than Arwen and Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

True. You said the same thing I said about Lúthien in an earlier post. I cannot see her having charge of any state. Being effeminate in all honesty is not a good quality in a monarch as we have seen with Alexander of Rome. He let his mother basically control him and the army murdered him.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True. You said the same thing I said about Lúthien in an earlier post. I cannot see her having charge of any state. Being effeminate in all honesty is not a good quality in a monarch as we have seen with Alexander of Rome. He let his mother basically control him and the army murdered him.

I wouldn't say that to Galadriel who clearly wasn't called Nerwen for nothing and Idril has leadership qualities. However there are issues for female rulers and they do tend to have to compromise their femininity unless the have the foil of a supportive consort.

However while Galadriel had the potential to be a warrior I dont think her defence of kin at Alqualonde is enough to say she was..it wasn't something she trained for as Elrond would have been. Now I am sure Galadriel as one of the old Noldor of Valinor might have had greater innate power but with weapons you have to rate Elrond, scionof Fingolfin, Turgon, Tuor and Earendil..father of Elladan and Elrohir..ok they might takecafter grannie! Herald of Gilgalad, who according to one accounts actually wrestled Sauron, leader of the task force to Ost in Edhel. Once Glorfindel had returned he may have abstained from combat for the sake of his healing but I bet if he had to...

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

it wasn't something she trained for as Elrond would have been.

Maybe or maybe not. She could certainly have been trained and I think she was schooled to some degree as a warrior. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as Elrond would have been".

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Exactly. To much stock can be put in the superlatives.
[/quote]
Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.[/quote]
I can't read it that way. The appearing to conceive is not in doubt. Hence the 'If so' necessarily refers to the 'aptitude', or ability to use it against Sauron.

As your following quote showed, however, it would have ended up being a deceit regardless of the wielder.

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

Oh I think she was a match for Celeborn And I think ahe could cope qith Gimli and Legolas..on a more serious note.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all.

Thanks for the replies. I was just thinking that since Tolkien described Galadriel being "of Amazonian disposition" [Letter #348] and the Amazons were warrior women, that her association with the loremasters who were said to be warriors, and her participation in the battle at Alqualondë were also pointing to her being a warrior. I therefore disagree with your assertion that she would not be a match for others in physical combat.

"Even after the MERCILESS assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back." [HoG&C, p. 242]

"In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor" [p. 243]

It is said that, "swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships" at that battle in which, "many were slain upon either side" [Annals of Aman, p. 116] Further a note says, "Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defense of Alqualondë." [p. 128]

In my opinion I'd assume that Galadriel among other things was also a warrior capable of wielding weapons of war and defending herself/others. She had an Amazonian disposition, and was also compared to the loremasters who are warriors, and fought in a battle in which many had died wielding weapons of war or drowned in the sea.