Gandalf's comment about Frodo

[Mithalwen]

LOTR Elf I didn't mean a physical death, per se, but I feel that he has passed the point of no return. Other factors yes but it is the crucial turning point.

[Pervinca Took]

Purely hypothetical, but I wonder if he would have been granted passage West if he hadn't agreed to carry the Ring to Mount Doom. He'd still have had to live with an injury for which there was no cure in Middle-earth. The only other reported survivor of a Morgul-wound died after about twelve years, as I recall.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Purely hypothetical, but I wonder if he would have been granted passage West if he hadn't agreed to carry the Ring to Mount Doom. He'd still have had to live with an injury for which there was no cure in Middle-earth.

I don't think so. The stain and burden of being a Ring-bearer was primarily what opened the way to Frodo. The Ring had at least for a time wholly conquered him, and in his own eyes he had thus 'failed' in his task. The guilt of that coupled with the aftereffects of longing for the Ring made the West the sole hope for him to find peace. It's notable that Bilbo and Sam, both Ring-bearers too, were allowed to go.

[Pervinca Took]

True, but he had already been a Ringbearer, and taken probably at least as much hurt from being one as Bilbo had, if you consider the effects of the Morgul-knife. Of course, it never needs to be considered, because he does assume the role "officially" at the Council. The Wise would have been very culpable, I think, if they'd left Middle-earth without asking for an option for him to join them given all that did happen, but I think they would still have had some level of responsibility to him even if he hadn't taken on the quest. The wound alone would not have been enough to make Frodo want to leave, I think, but still. Perhaps the Wise would have left the Last Homely House open to the Ringbearers as a place of peace and refuge, even if with Elrond and Vilya gone, its healing virtues would have been much lessened (and Bilbo was already resident there, of course). Presumably there were still healers with some of the skill that Elrond had - his sons, and some of the Dunedain, and the remaining Elves themselves.

[Belegorn]

Yes Boromir the Steward had a Morgul wound which pained him until he died. He was feared by the Witch-king.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

LOTR Elf I didn't mean a physical death, per se, but I feel that he has passed the point of no return.

Yes, I understood what you were trying to say by Death. But the Morgul-blade wound made him like Glorfindel instead of making like a Wraith. He'd never be the same again. True. But because of the wound he, instead of diminishing, started growing.
The death you're talking about, definitily took place, but when the Ring was destroyed. He came home, altered, completely. It was something like "he could not go on in the world of mortals because he was like a spirit now." Makes sense?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Yes, I understood what you were trying to say by Death. But the Morgul-blade wound made him like Glorfindel instead of making like a Wraith. He'd never be the same again. True. But because of the wound he, instead of diminishing, started growing.
The death you're talking about, definitily took place, but when the Ring was destroyed. He came home, altered, completely. It was something like "he could not go on in the world of mortals because he was like a spirit now." Makes sense?

We may have to differ on this. But I don't think I am conveying perhaps what I mean well enough. But I certainly think that he passed the point of no return long before the Ring was destroyed.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

We may have to differ on this. But I don't think I am conveying perhaps what I mean well enough. But I certainly think that he passed the point of no return long before the Ring was destroyed.

Yes, that's what I meant in my previous post! I just said he didn't "die." His death also means that his "human (or Hobbit)" part died with the destruction of the Ring and Gollum's death. All those who were tempted by the Ring were perished:Boromir, Gollum and ultimately Souron. This is why I guess Frodo's survival becomes "odd" because he doesn't die literally, but in other ways. Morgul-blade wound was beginning of his new fate.

[Lotrelf]

Makes perfect sense, Inziladun. Perfect.
You said "Sam observes" Frodo's transparency; in the book, when Sam sees the LIGHT in Frodo, he says that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." beautiful: Understood. What did he mean by 'Old' ? I thought at this point perhaps the Ring wasn't working i.e. Not Affecting him that much, or the LIGHT was protecting him. But, couldn't this be something about his growing wisdom? After all, Gandalf, Elrond etc. look old. What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

You said "Sam observes" Frodo's transparency; in the book, when Sam sees the LIGHT in Frodo, he says that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." beautiful: Understood. What did he mean by 'Old' ? I thought at this point perhaps the Ring wasn't working i.e. Not Affecting him that much, or the LIGHT was protecting him. But, couldn't this be something about his growing wisdom? After all, Gandalf, Elrond etc. look old. What do you think?

I'm sure the mental strain of constantly resisting the Ring contributed to Frodo's appearance. He had probably been gradually aging in that way since setting out on the Quest, as the Ring's power grew along with Sauron's (and it's growing proximity to Mordor as Frodo and Sam traveled). As in real life, gradual changes often go unnoticed until one has an "aha" moment where life allows a momentary stillness, and time for one to really see something.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm sure the mental strain of constantly resisting the Ring contributed to Frodo's appearance. He had probably been gradually aging in that way since setting out on the Quest, as the Ring's power grew along with Sauron's (and it's growing proximity to Mordor as Frodo and Sam traveled). As in real life, gradual changes often go unnoticed until one has an "aha" moment where life allows a momentary stillness, and time for one to really see something.

How? After getting the Ring, Bilbo stopped aging; Gollum lived for more than 500 years. This means: They stopped aging. Why would Frodo look old, then.? He had stopped aging as well, as we are told in FOTR. Or we are saying the same thing, his "growing wisdom", but differently?