the elessar

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

For example, like why Galadriel needed the stone in the Third Age, with respect to the 'Olorin version' I mean.

I think you are here not employing, in enough measure, what you call a brain dear Galin, if that is your real name by the way.

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

Haven't you ever noticed before how much Tolkien employs the name Olorin in this section of the tale, rather than Gandalf, and that his parenthetical reference 'who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir' could easily refer to days that followed this visit in history, to days after the Istari came to Middle-earth.

Come on!

Plus, isn't there a general reference in later writing to Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth? But I suppose you are too lazy to look that up given the mere possibity of it existing only in my poor memory... so good day to you sir.

Really.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

I'm inclined to doubt the Elessar would have been brought by Olórin prior to the Third Age. I can't at the moment recall the reference to Olórin physically visiting Middle-earth; only that The Silmarillion credits him with walking unseen among the Elves at times, or in the form of one of them. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would have been allowed to go to Middle-earth alone, seeing what havoc had been wrought by some of his fellow Maia (Sauron and Balrogs). The coming of the Istari also seems such a monumental event in the history that I think it would have been cheapened by the notion of Olórin having been to Middle-earth and spoken to some there already.
The recurrence of the naming "Olórin" could be explained by the idea that the Istari had only recently arrived and had not yet been given their Middle-earth names. Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

[Galin]

Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

To me the passage from The Silmarillion suggests that perhaps Olórin did not make himself known, in general anyway, as Olórin at least. But that said, he does appear to have been known to Glorfindel in Aman. And after Tolkien notes that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olórin in Valinor, JRRT adds:

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples Of Middle-Earth

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age]: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari?
In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter

....divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

If Gandalf had arrived there before, that would not have been the "first meeting" with Círdan, and I get the idea that no ship from the West could have come there without his knowledge.
I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

Originally Posted by Galin;689993... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age

: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari? In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter (...) I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

In the entry for the base PHAN- [Words, Phrases And Passages, Parma Eldalamberon] it's said:

'But it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, 'passed over the Sea', and appeared in Middle-earth. (Notably Orome, Ulmo, and Yavanna) The Valar and Maiar were essentially 'spirits', according to Elvish tradition given before the making of Ea. They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Ea where they desired to be.*

*subject only to special limitations voluntarily taken upon themselves or decreed by Eru. (...)

That 'footnote' is much longer, but I don't recall anything that notably limits the idea here, keeping Melian in mind for example, who passed to Middle-earth and back, seemingly. I suppose one could argue that Tolkien ultimately rejected this too, since an arguably abbreviated [by comparison] explanation of the fanar of the Valar was published in The Road Goes Ever On, but the lack might also be due to brevity there. Hard to say.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

Heh, well yes, and formerly I thought Tolkien was perhaps purposely making 'version A' questionable by describing this scenario, but even if so it remains problematic within its own version. That is, 'version A' is still internal, it's intended to be an in story variation, and in that context I think it's a rather notable point of chronology -- which fades away however, if Olorin passed over Sea...

... like Melian did

[Ivriniel]

I'm highly disinclined to imagine that the Olorin we knew as Gandalf, "...known as Olorin in the West...", bore any Elessar anywhere as a pre-Istari Maian Spirit. It's too obscure, though a theoretical, I suppose. Low likelihood one.

He did not manufacture it, and irrespective of the competing narratives on the darned Elessar we knew he did not manufacture it. As a lesser artefact (certainly not as groovy or with as much goo goo as the Palantiri or The Rings), it makes much more sense that it was an Elfy making. That has implications for inferences about it, its keeper, who held it, distributed it and why.

We knew Galadriel had it, TA. Celebrimbor gifted it to her, in one of the variations of its origin while he stalked her to gettiton with him. I believe he asked for a lock of her hair, in fact, which she denied him, (which on an aside, adds to the significance of Gimli's request. Looks like good ole Galadriel kept her affections for Durin's Folk in tact, after SA). Then there was all that stuff about Celebrimbor and Galadriel hanging out together in the Ost-In-Edhil as they worked towards preserving Elvendom in Middle Earth. He knew she wanted Elvendom-y things in Middle Earth and so, during his stalking, made the Elessar. Love buying - creepy man, erm, I mean Elf . Seems like a consistent narrative thread, at that time he was hot for her. As I understood the emphasis in why it was crafted (a pre-Ring assay in attempts to do what The Rings did, but better), it is also consistent with the improvements upon the Elessar in the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's artefacts--the Rings of Power. That kind of narrative consistency is absent from competing models of inference.

That's why the competing narrative, with an odd name--Enerdhil--in an obscure footnote, firstly, and then the retina-burning idea of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Not. Once Celebrimbor is tied to Feanor's line, there's no way in any abstraction that his presence makes sense in Gondolin. The Seven Sons of Feanor were to Gondolin (the estrangement between Fingolfin, his line, and Feanor's) what chalk is to cheese, which I think is what Galin is emphasising.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

It's been a while since I re-read. I'll go check UFT and my other tomes.....cheers

[Galin]

Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter.

Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age.

Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me.

And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example].


With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'...

... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it.

I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599

[cellurdur]

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.