The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-26-2014, 01:32 PM   #1
Orphalesion
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 50
Orphalesion has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].
Ah yes, thank you that's what I remembered. Of course there was no spell of bottomless dread in the later stories. I'm a huge fan of the BoLT version of the mythology so I sometimes get the two version mixed up.
Orphalesion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 08:54 PM   #2
cellurdur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
cellurdur has just left Hobbiton.
I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.
cellurdur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 09:11 PM   #3
cellurdur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
cellurdur has just left Hobbiton.
Concerning the aging of the Dunedain we have some information about this in the LOTR. Aragorn at 20 years old was considered early come into manhood and still had not reached complete maturity.

"Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he had early come into manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen


Slightly before this we are given some indication about when maidens were regarded as old enough to wed. Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, was believed too young and was below the standard age of a Dunedain bride. In fact she was so young her father was going to refuse to let the marriage take place.

"To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

From previous date we learn that Gilraen was born in the Third Age 2907. She wed Arathron in the Third Age 2929. We can estimate what she was either 22 or 21 at this point and considered below the general age of marirage.

If we look at the works that Tolkien did not publish we have the case of Aldarion. Aldarion only comes into manhood and full responsibility at the age of 25.

Veantur speaking to his grandson says this.

" Anardilya, the spring is drawing nigh and also the day of your full age' (for in that April Aldarion would be twenty-five years old)."
-Unfinished Tales, Aldarion and Erendis

Looking at the evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that Tolkien intended for the Dunedain to reach full maturity at 25 and this would be the age where they would be acknowledged and full accepted as an adult. It also appears to be the age where they would usually be permitted to marry.

On the point of Gondorian kings having a beard, it has been many generations since Elros. We know that Elves such as Cirdan and Mahatar were supposed to have beards. The only extensive writing Tolkien had on the subject had Elves growing beards in the third part of their life. I tend to assume that either the kings of Gondor tended to finally grow beards very late in life or that after so many generations some had lost this quality.
cellurdur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 09:36 PM   #4
cellurdur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
cellurdur has just left Hobbiton.
Finally on the topic of Elvish maturity.

I will first address the brief note that we have in the Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien says that the Eldar aged much the same way as the Numenoreans.

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' they then aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly."-Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros.

This comment here certainly implies that Elves and Men aged MUCH the same and would certainly dismiss the notion of the Eldar taking 3000 years to mature. However, what does Tolkien mean by 'much the same'? Is an elf taking 50 years to mature, a Hobbit taking 33 years and a Dunedain taking 33 years that different? Without any further elaboration I am not convinced that this is enough to dismiss the detailed essay he wrote about Elvish aging.

I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.

The Children of Hurin was compiled much later than even the HOME. Christopher Tolkien had even more time to evaluate his fathers notes and take out things he did not think would quite fit.

Christopher Tolkien also tells us that Tolkien completed most of the Children of Hurin after the publication of LOTR.

"By far the greater part of this work, if not all of it, belongs to the time following the actual publication of The Lord of the Rings. In those years the Children of Hurin became for him the dominant story of the Elder Days, and for a long time he devoted all his thought to it."-The Children of Hurin, Appendix

As we can see the quote Hurin and Sabdor supports a similarity between the maturity of Elves and Men, but the Elves having the long childhood.

Personally I think it's a very big jump to assume that Tolkien dismissed the idea of Elves maturing at 50 given Christopher Tolkien never commenting on this one note. It becomes an even bigger stretch when we see how the mortal (an ultimately descendant from Man) Hobbits have evolved to reach full maturity at 33.
cellurdur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2014, 05:25 AM   #5
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,694
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Finally on the topic of Elvish maturity.

I will first address the brief note that we have in the Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien says that the Eldar aged much the same way as the Numenoreans.

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' they then aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly."-Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros.

This comment here certainly implies that Elves and Men aged MUCH the same and would certainly dismiss the notion of the Eldar taking 3000 years to mature. However, what does Tolkien mean by 'much the same'? Is an elf taking 50 years to mature, a Hobbit taking 33 years and a Dunedain taking 33 years that different? Without any further elaboration I am not convinced that this is enough to dismiss the detailed essay he wrote about Elvish aging.
But did anyone say "Laws and Customs" should be "dismissed", anyway? I thought the question was whether it can be considered the final word on the subject. Not the same thing.

Quote:
I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.

The Children of Hurin was compiled much later than even the HOME. Christopher Tolkien had even more time to evaluate his fathers notes and take out things he did not think would quite fit.

Christopher Tolkien also tells us that Tolkien completed most of the Children of Hurin after the publication of LOTR.
We've been through this before, I think? I have the greatest respect for Christopher Tolkien's judgement regarding his father's work, but to not to the extent of treating him as some kind of high priest of Tolkienicity. -And yes, that's hyperbole and not meant literally- but honestly, cellurdur, you're pinning so much on his editorial decisions that it almost comes to that.

Also, there is what I said earlier: Sador's words point to *a* difference- but is it the one in "Laws and Customs"? Or something else again? I don't think there's any way of telling for sure.

Quote:
Personally I think it's a very big jump to assume that Tolkien dismissed the idea of Elves maturing at 50 given Christopher Tolkien never commenting on this one note. It becomes an even bigger stretch when we see how the mortal (an ultimately descendant from Man) Hobbits have evolved to reach full maturity at 33.
I, for my part, assume nothing of the kind. However, the bare fact that he may
have done so casts doubt on the whole line of reasoning based on Dior/Earendil/Elwing's ages- which was the original point. For that matter just the fact that it's not the *only* version does that.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2014, 12:07 PM   #6
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
But did anyone say "Laws and Customs" should be "dismissed", anyway? I thought the question was whether it can be considered the final word on the subject. Not the same thing.
Exactly. What you have to understand about LACE is that (per C. Tolkien who has some weight or doesn't have weight depending on the lunar cycle) it was written by men and not the Eldar; therefore it is a retelling of ancient lore, so there is an accuracy issue from the start, considering what we know about chroniclers adding or deleting information to suit their needs and prejudices. One only has to look at Beowulf, a poem Tolkien cherished, to know that it was a pagan tract rewritten with a Christian patina many years later and not by the same hand(s).

In addition, Tolkien abandoned the whole idea of using Aelfwine as transmitter of Elvish tales in favor of Bilbo Baggins' Red Book Of Westmarch, but then it seems he may have reconsidered later when compiling the Narn i Hîn Húrin. In any case, the entire LACE section would need to be edited and changed, and Tolkien never went back to it. It obviously was not a pressing item in his agenda, and as C. Tolkien admitted it was "sometimes obscure, and tantalising in its obscurity" -- which it certainly is.

Finally, as nearly as I can tell, Tolkien never adjusted anything timewise in his chronologies to account for changes he made according to LACE, nor does any quotes I've seen from either Galin or Cellardur indicated a fixed time for maturity of Elves (or, more importantly, Half-elves); in fact, Tolkien bounces back and forth throughout his life from something as outlandish as 3000 years right down to the same as mortal men. As Galin pointed out, the last mention from Tolkien indicated they aged relatively the same.

It is variable and certainly not definitive. It is not canon in the sense that Sauron created the One Ring and Gollum destroyed It and himself in Mount Doom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
We've been through this before, I think? I have the greatest respect for Christopher Tolkien's judgement regarding his father's work, but to not to the extent of treating him as some kind of high priest of Tolkienicity. -And yes, that's hyperbole and not meant literally- but honestly, cellurdur, you're pinning so much on his editorial decisions that it almost comes to that.

Also, there is what I said earlier: Sador's words point to *a* difference- but is it the one in "Laws and Customs"? Or something else again? I don't think there's any way of telling for sure.
Sador's quote is not definitive:

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Does the youth of Men pass soon? Without a doubt. Like I stated previously, considering that up to the most recent times, mortal men died very early, women even earlier (depending on how many children they bore, they were lucky to get past 30). Throw in the plague or even an infected tooth, and death was swift. So they married very early as well, mid-teens was common. The historical record as far back as the Biblical Hebrews indicates very early marriages (betrothal being at 12 1/2 years-old). Tolkien the scholar would be most aware of this information, even without the interwebz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
I, for my part, assume nothing of the kind. However, the bare fact that he may
have done so casts doubt on the whole line of reasoning based on Dior/Earendil/Elwing's ages- which was the original point. For that matter just the fact that it's not the *only* version does that.
A jury of one's peers could not convict with the reasonable doubt spread in and out and all about.

But the real question is...did Half-elves have Balrogs wings? And did they sprout them when they grew beards?
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2014, 01:37 PM   #7
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
It [L&C] is variable and certainly not definitive. It is not canon in the sense that Sauron created the One Ring and Gollum destroyed It and himself in Mount Doom.
I agree. And 'canon' for me is author-published stuff. That doesn't mean I ignore the legends of the Elder Days of course, but that's a more complicated issue.


Quote:
What you have to understand about LACE is that (per C. Tolkien who has some weight or doesn't have weight depending on the lunar cycle) it was written by men and not the Eldar; therefore it is a retelling of ancient lore, so there is an accuracy issue from the start, considering what we know about chroniclers adding or deleting information to suit their needs and prejudices. One only has to look at Beowulf, a poem Tolkien cherished, to know that it was a pagan tract rewritten with a Christian patina many years later and not by the same hand(s).
That's true but I'm not sure why Elfwine would necessarily be considered wrong about a given something, unless we have more of an internal reason to question him. I mean, what you say is arguably built in, I guess, but when it comes to specific ideas the reader, if told 50 or 100 let's say, would probably take this as 'the best he or she can know' -- again, unless something else internal shakes the notion somewhat.

The Eressean orc-origin idea was internally delivered as a belief for instance, but should the reader question the Wise of Eressea? And even if we did, if Tolkien himself had published this 'origin' alone, we might wonder a bit but in the end would still probably be noting this origin as 'fact', at least as far as what appears in the 'true' legendarium that is.

In general, Elfwine was supposed to get his information rather directly from Eresseans, which is actually the 'more reliable' [in my opinion] transmission compared to the later idea.

I'm going on memory here, but I think the role of Elfwine possibly 'survived' in text until the later 1950s, around the time of L&C. Certainly The Lord of the Rings first edition was published before this of course, but I would have to check the first edition 'transmission references' compared to the second edition to say anything possibly meaningful about that.

That said, and not that you said or think otherwise, but the loss of Elfwine might only mean we need a new 'internal author' with some niggling to reflect this...

... but that said too, there seems to be notions within L&C that were revised, or arguably were, or are at least a bit questionable. For example, even the naming customs appear to have been revised according to Christopher Tolkien [compared to the shorter text on naming from the later The Shibbolerh of Feanor]. But I wonder if the 'missing' Chosen-name of the Noldor, for instnce, is only missing due to brevity, and the consideration that it doesn't seem to be a custom among the other Eldar in any case.

But certainly I agree that L&C awaited revision if it was to become part of the author-published legendarium.


Quote:
Finally, as nearly as I can tell, Tolkien never adjusted anything timewise in his chronologies to account for changes he made according to LACE, nor does any quotes I've seen from either Galin or Cellardur indicated a fixed time for maturity of Elves (or, more importantly, Half-elves); in fact, Tolkien bounces back and forth throughout his life from something as outlandish as 3000 years right down to the same as mortal men.
There is a note from CJRT that seems to say he thinks his father means, at one point anyway [from something in a text], that one can just 'plug in' 144 Sun Years and employ the old dates that were witten with the much smaller ratio [almost 10] in mind.

And while that works to drastically lengthen the years concerned, for instance from the Awakening of the Quendi [which gives much more time for 3,000 years to maturity to begin to dwindle] to the Rebellion, it just doesn't seem to work in all places, as the flight of the Noldor would take notably long, if I recall correctly.

Quote:
As Galin pointed out, the last mention from Tolkien indicated they aged relatively the same.
Well with Tolken one never knows

But I would be surprised if anything turned up about Elven ageing that could certainly be dated after Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals.

At the moment I'm not sure what text is later than the other: the one that represents 50 [some 100], or 3,000 but dwindling in Middle-earth; or the citation from the Line of Elros actually. I'm not sure it's possible to even know between these examples, but I haven't looked at the external dating recently.

By the way I do remember it was someone at Barow Downs who opened my eyes to the possibility [and in my opinion probability] that the notion was 3,000 and dwindling in Middle-earth...

... it was years ago now, but thanks to that person
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 09:21 PM   #8
Ivriniel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Ivriniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.
Nice points.

I add though, that what JRRT did at his death bed goes to narrative intention, and as such, I'm not partial to dismissing his will on matters of narrative purpose and about what is a position on textual pre-eminence.

That is, just because he had some forgetfulness, late in his life, what right does Chris have to unmake ( an 'un' word) his father's intention for Celeborn (Teleporno). Again, does it make sense that Galadriel, for example, would marry a Telerin sub-lord of Doriath more than grandfather Olwe's Eldar who had seen the Light of Aman?
Ivriniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 10:12 PM   #9
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men
I don't feel one has to know Tolkien at all to think that he would probably abide by the story in print. Even if he 'wouldn't' I think he should, as 'in print' concerns the art of subcreation. He didn't all the time, but to my mind the general concern is consistency with already published description, so as to not undermine the Subcreated World.

I often give great weight to Christopher Tolkien's opinion too, but HME clearly illustrates that he did not know very many things, despite his relationship with both his father and his father's works. And with respect to what Christopher Tolkien published as a story -- I mean he published HME and UT as well -- I see no indication that these versions were intended as 'canon', or as any ultimate statement that they represent what Tolkien desired.

For example Christopher Tolkien knew the Helm of Hador was intended to have more 'ink' and presence in the Narn, but I think it's fairly clear that he chose not to write it in because there simply wasn't enough Tolkien-written text to employ -- enough for the amount CJRT desired anyway.

Is that a reason to accept that Turin wore a Dwarf-mask when facing Glaurung, over the Helm, because JRRT didn't get around to writing 'enough' about the Helm for Christopher Tolkien to feel he could easily incorporate the idea [by trying to be more editor than 'writer' I would say]? Not for me anyway. Or do you have an alternative theory about why CJRT chose the Dwarf-mask for the constructed Narn?

I don't think it is in Christopher Tolkien's character to stamp these versions as anything that should outweigh his father's actual texts, and I don't think that's the point in constructing them. He certainly was given authority by Tolkien to edit and publish, but that isn't the same as claiming the one volume versions should have authority over his father's work.


Quote:
Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.
Of course it is impossible, but 'mistakes' by whom? And since it was impossible to incorporate every last known idea into a one volume 'consistent' version, is it a 'mistake' not to include the longer history of the Helm of Hador for example? Or not to alter Sador -- as Tolkien intended to change this character notably, into one of the Druedain if I recall correctly. Certainly not mistakes in my opinion.

Christopher Tolkien has never, to my knowledge, pretended to be or desired to be the creator of Middle-earth, but rather he desired to provide a version of these tales for readers. That is, he could at least give readers the intended 'format' or experience, if not his father's ultimate version. And then he showed us the texts behind his constructions, in HME, with a very different, more scholarly presentation of the material he had to work with.


In any case, the matter is still not simple, which was my point. You can give your opinions on 'canon' and why you put the constructed Narn and L&C above other texts, and others will take a different approach.

So still more complicated than taking L&C alone as a given, which was my point

Last edited by Galin; 03-27-2014 at 06:00 AM.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 10:25 PM   #10
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.
Well there's the Tolkien-written note from VT. We have that from CJRT too, as he gave it to the editors of VT to publish.

And in my opinion 50 years, or for some 100 years [let's not forget], is different enough to me. You can paint it a 'big jump' as you like, or call it an 'assumption' that Tolkien dismissed the idea...

... but you can't claim you know for sure that L&C is a given here.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:56 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.