Physics and RoTK??!

[yavanna II]

Hey... I have this weird paper on my physics class, something about the "physics concepts and principles applied" on the Return of the King. Included are the flaws (with respect to the laws of physics) of the movie and the recommendation thingy. I'd be so glad to have a little help from you guys. Thank you!

[Elmo]

You seem to have a more interesting Physics class then I had - the centroid method of measuring uncertainties in a gradient was probably the funnest thing we ever did

[alatar]

Are you saying that the flaws are noted, and that you are to explain why these events contradict the laws of physics? If so, can we have the list?

[Essex]

pity you're not doing the fellowship

on another lotr site many years back now it seems, we had a lot of fun, ganshing of teeth, screaming, cursing etc on how on earth movie Gandalf caught up with 1/ his sword 2/ the balrog on his trip down the unmeasurable drop from the bridge of kazad dum. unfortunately the site seemed to go into decline and vanish a couple of years back (hence why I moved onto here)

[Elmo]

Maybe he used the Force

[Aiwendil]

on another lotr site many years back now it seems, we had a lot of fun, ganshing of teeth, screaming, cursing etc on how on earth movie Gandalf caught up with 1/ his sword 2/ the balrog on his trip down the unmeasurable drop from the bridge of kazad dum. unfortunately the site seemed to go into decline and vanish a couple of years back (hence why I moved onto here)

Maybe his inertial mass was not equal to his gravitational mass. Sure, that would prove general relativity wrong, but hey, we have empirical evidence.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Essex

pity you're not doing the fellowship

on another lotr site many years back now it seems, we had a lot of fun, ganshing of teeth, screaming, cursing etc on how on earth movie Gandalf caught up with 1/ his sword 2/ the balrog on his trip down the unmeasurable drop from the bridge of kazad dum. unfortunately the site seemed to go into decline and vanish a couple of years back (hence why I moved onto here)

lol! Yes, my sister and I notice that every time. Very strange, really...

In the book, I guess he kept the sword in his hand? One hand was empty because he had broken his staff and no long held it, the other held his sword...the Balrog's whip got him, he fell, snatched at the edge of the broken bridge, and fell.
In the movie, however, he dropped both his sword and his staff when he got lapped up by the whip. Very careless of him...

As for flaws on the RotK in concerns to Physics...none seem to pop up in my mind at present. Good luck.

-- Folwren

[Elmo]

Surely sliding down the trunk of an oliphaunt or whatever Legolas Bond did must break some law of physics but maybe it just broke the law against crap sequences in films

[Meneltarmacil]

Wasn't there something about how Frodo would have been incinerated in real life if he had been as close to the fire of Mount Doom as he was?

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

Wasn't there something about how Frodo would have been incinerated in real life if he had been as close to the fire of Mount Doom as he was?

Nice one. I think this has something to do with the thermodynamics thingy.

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Surely sliding down the trunk of an oliphaunt or whatever Legolas Bond did must break some law of physics but maybe it just broke the law against crap sequences in films

I thought of this too the first time I watched the film. Gravitation and all that kinda stuff.

Thanks guys for the ideas! I appreciate these.

[Sir Kohran]

In the Middle Ages, trebuchets often had trouble just launching stones the size of a human head, but the (wooden!) trebuchets in ROTK launch rocks the size of houses without any trouble whatsoever.

[alatar]

One of my favorites is the Black Gate at the Morannon. Two trolls, however strong, swing open the gate by pushing on a bar. By my guesstimates that would be like me opening a heavy door using a toothpick! Figure out the lengths on both sides of the pivot point, estimate the mass of the Gate and figure out the force that must be exerted by the Trolls and what substance on Earth, Middle or otherwise, would withstand such stress.

And does the bar which they push even bow/bend a bit?

[Rumil]

I think I have spotted another Middle Earth Physics violation,

JRRT claimed that the Sun and Moon were derived from fruit.

Now cheese maybe but fruit, naaaah!

(OK its in the Silmarillion but the very same Sun and Moon were depicted in the movie RoTK, though their parts were acted by a gigantic mass of fusing hydrogen and helium with a surface temperature of more than 5000 C and a 2000 mile diameter lump of rock, respectively, which I think worked quite well)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rumil

JRRT claimed that the Sun and Moon were derived from fruit.

We're discussing the movies, and so I think that you meant to write nuts...

[Meneltarmacil]

Regarding the Black Gate, was the bar perhaps made of mithril?

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I've got one! How about Grond the battering ram used during the Siege of Gondor? Calculating the weight, angle, and velocity needed to break the Gate of Minas Tirith must have been a pain for those silly trolls.
How about the perfect angle at which to attach the stirrup to David Wenham's leg as not to break his ankle when Faramir was being dragged in though the Gates... in full armour... stuck full of arrows... *trails off into grumbling*

The trebuchet one was great, Sir Kohran.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

Regarding the Black Gate, was the bar perhaps made of mithril?

Not sure. In one telling of the story the Gates of the Morannon are made by the Men of the West, and I don't think that they would have invested precious mithril into this gate. The Gate for Minas Tirith contained mithril, but from my reading it was more decoration than function. After King Elessar becomes King, the Gate is newly wrought with mithril (I'd use it in the hinges ).

Anyway, in PJ's Black Gate, we have a troll team used to open it. Would Sauron, who coveted mithril, used this precious metal for something so base as a door handle?

[Knight of Gondor]

Scenes from Return of the King in which physics might be discussed:

• Gollum hanging down towards the beginning
  
• The arrow fired by Legolas to pierce Wormtongue
  
• Saruman's plunge
  
• The distance of the Palantir and how far it rolled
  
• Sam's fall down the stairs after leaving Frodo, perhaps including the fall of the Lembas crumbs
  
• Siege towers for the assault against Gondor
  
• The Witchking's mace; wielding it, dislodging it from the ground, etc.
  
• Grond and other siege weapons
  
• The return-fire from Gondor (using sections of their own wall)
  
• The difference of siege weapons between the lever action of Mordor and the sling-type action of Gondor
  
• The Nazgul terrorizing the people and weapons on the tops of Gondor...the distance it took for the Gondorian victims to fall before hitting the roofs below
  
• Bracing the door (brace versus the force from the other side, being banged on by the troll with the hammer) when Gandalf and Pippin are waiting for the breech of the second (third/fourth?) tier gate, when they discuss the white shores
  
• Denethor's flaming plunge
  
• How Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would likely have sustained injuries from their jump off the ship if they'd made it in real life
  
• Legolas versus the Oliphants...sliding off the trunk and landing unharmed right in front of Gimli
  
• Aragorn dropping the Evenstar pendant, and its subsequent shattering
  
• Gollum's fall
  
• The fall of one of the Dark Riders when his mount is attacked by an eagle
  
• The destruction of the Dark Tower (Golly, I hope you've already seen the film! )

Covered enough topics? I'm guessing if you want to narrow in, the siege weapons would be a good thing to go with. It's a topic of physics that still affects battle strategy today, and has several facets of interest in the movie.

[yavanna II]

I've just finished my paper.. and took a lot of ideas from here. I quoted this site of course, to avoid the university plagiarism thingy....

[Mattius]

Originally Posted by Essex

pity you're not doing the fellowship

on another lotr site many years back now it seems, we had a lot of fun, ganshing of teeth, screaming, cursing etc on how on earth movie Gandalf caught up with 1/ his sword 2/ the balrog on his trip down the unmeasurable drop from the bridge of kazad dum. unfortunately the site seemed to go into decline and vanish a couple of years back (hence why I moved onto here)

I'm so pedantic but thats actually in the Two Towers

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

The return-fire from Gondor (using sections of their own wall)

Yes, how the hell did they manage that?! Firstly, did they have chunks of the wall simply sitting around and secondly how did they get the bits of wall on the giant catapults?!

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Mattius

I'm so pedantic but thats actually in the Two Towers



Yes, how the hell did they manage that?! Firstly, did they have chunks of the wall simply sitting around and secondly how did they get the bits of wall on the giant catapults?!

I'm not sure if those stones were supposed to be the ones freshly broken. Gondor itself was already falling into disrepair, so instead of expending manpower and time to removing broken sections of the walls, just save on space and load them into the cranes. And a good idea it was, too.

[Mattius]

You may be right there

I'm no physics expert- but would the Eagles have been able to fly that close to a Volcano- there must have been some unagreeable thermals

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Mattius

I'm no physics expert- but would the Eagles have been able to fly that close to a Volcano- there must have been some unagreeable thermals

I'm not even half an expert, so I don't know. I expect that number one, we have no gigantic eagles on earth with which we could compare, number two Mt. Doom really hadn't gotten going yet, and number three, birds are very skilled in navigating the skies, and would be able to snatch the hobbits and get out without any trouble.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

Wasn't there something about how Frodo would have been incinerated in real life if he had been as close to the fire of Mount Doom as he was?

You know, I pointed this out when I was watching the movie for the first time. (At the premier.) My friends almost strangled me.

I found myself justified when we went to the Episode III premier and watched as Anakin burst into flames. I had to fight the urge to turn around and say, "See? That close to lava and you catch fire!"

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

You know, I pointed this out when I was watching the movie for the first time. (At the premier.) My friends almost strangled me.

You have a Balrog, undead creatures, a civilization of supermodels, magic, etc, and you're concerned about a little heat?

I found myself justified when we went to the Episode III premier and watched as Anakin burst into flames. I had to fight the urge to turn around and say, "See? That close to lava and you catch fire!"

Note the lava river and road that runs from Mount Doom to Barad Dur. And doesn't the same lava ring the Fortress? Exactly how does the tower stand?

[Roa_Aoife]

Note the lava river and road that runs from Mount Doom to Barad Dur. And doesn't the same lava ring the Fortress? Exactly how does the tower stand?

Maybe the tower is made from the same minerals which make up the Earth's crust, or other such rock which doesn't melt upon contact with lava.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Maybe the tower is made from the same minerals which make up the Earth's crust, or other such rock which doesn't melt upon contact with lava.

Okay; surely there's precedent. But just how far up the tower does that heat radiate? And what does it do to any local water supplies (i.e. groundwater), or do orcs drink poison?

[Elmo]

I suppose supplying the tower with water would be more drudgery for the snaga, carrying water by hand

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't have my books with me (they're all packed up) but I do recall that the water in Mordor was scarce, and what was there was less than drinkable. I doubt Sauron needed any. Though I do wonder about the orcs... Is there any written instance of them ever drinking water? They complained about not having any meat, but I don't think they complained about the water supply.

[Elmo]

Don't Sam and Frodo find Orcish water bottles in Mordor. They're living beings they have to have sustenance

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I don't have my books with me (they're all packed up) but I do recall that the water in Mordor was scarce, and what was there was less than drinkable. I doubt Sauron needed any. Though I do wonder about the orcs... Is there any written instance of them ever drinking water? They complained about not having any meat, but I don't think they complained about the water supply.

Sorry. Sam/Frodo actually make the point that even orcs need water. And note that the water in Mordor was terrible, unless one was very thirsty, then it was like elven wine.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mattius

I'm no physics expert- but would the Eagles have been able to fly that close to a Volcano- there must have been some unagreeable thermals

I don't think you need to be a Physics expert for this. Eagles were Divine creatures; and they wouldn't be affected by the poisonous air, heat, and other harmful stuff caused by the Lava. How do you think Frodo and Survived who were kind of weaker than the Eagles??

[tom the eldest]

How about that the main characters are somehow is so competent that no single enemy are able to scratch them?or what about the good soldiers is so incompetent that even one small orc is what it takes to kill a lot of the good soldiers?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I don't think you need to be a Physics expert for this. Eagles were Divine creatures; and they wouldn't be affected by the poisonous air, heat, and other harmful stuff caused by the Lava. How do you think Frodo and Survived who were kind of weaker than the Eagles??

I would think the Eagles susceptible to the same things as other truly embodied spirits like the Istari and Ents. The poisonous air of Mordor would have had two sources: smoke from Mt. Doom and the "reek" of whatever industrial or sorcerous activities Sauron had been up to. The pollution would not have been present in all the air, but in layers. The Eagles could find a relatively clean slot in which to do most of their flying, probably. Short term exposure to the fumes when moving through layers shouldn't have been too harmful.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

How about that the main characters are somehow is so competent that no single enemy are able to scratch them?or what about the good soldiers is so incompetent that even one small orc is what it takes to kill a lot of the good soldiers?

That's what I was thinking today. But the soldiers' deaths depend on other matters too. Perhaps they don't focus much enough, worry too much. And main characters are well trained and all. Soldiers are ordinary folks, while main characters are special. Aragorn, Gandalf, Faramir and all of them have something special; otoh, men fighting in the war are not.
I know it's just VERY bad explaination, that's what I can come up with now.

[tom the eldest]

In movies,the hero ALWAYS have some sort of supernatural prptection that make them invincible from attacks.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

In movies,the hero ALWAYS have some sort of supernatural prptection that make them invincible from attacks.

Oh...well..this is why they're heroes. Or it's like "This is their story. They are telling us how they got past with everything that came their way." You can't forget Frodo. He is not kind of hero you're talking about here.

[tom the eldest]

Just look at legolas,i know that elves are very agile,but that was just absurd.while the rest of the elves,notably the one in helms deep,was easily massacred by orcs.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would think the Eagles susceptible to the same things as other truly embodied spirits like the Istari and Ents. The poisonous air of Mordor would have had two sources: smoke from Mt. Doom and the "reek" of whatever industrial or sorcerous activities Sauron had been up to. The pollution would not have been present in all the air, but in layers. The Eagles could find a relatively clean slot in which to do most of their flying, probably. Short term exposure to the fumes when moving through layers shouldn't have been too harmful.

The poisonous air will be all around the atmosphere. How are they going to find clean shot, especially after such a terrible eruption? No, I don't think Eagles will be affected like ordinary beings. Gandalf went with them too, does he complain anything like that? Or if they were affected, it didn't do much harm to them. Frodo and Sam spent days in those circumstances, and after the volcanic eruption hours(I think it took few hours for Eagles to get there). They were not around the MD for a very long time. Not as long as Frodo and Sam were.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Just look at legolas,i know that elves are very agile,but that was just absurd.while the rest of the elves,notably the one in helms deep,was easily massacred by orcs.

You mean Haldir? Yeah! Legolas is PJ's super hero. He gets bruised while fighting with the Orcs of Saruman.