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#1 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Arnor- Designed For Failure?
There are stark differences apparent between the Númenórean Kingdoms in Exile in Middle-earth, Arnor and Gondor.
One would think Arnor had the greater importance to the Númenóreans, since that was the realm of Elendil himself, and after the war of the Last Alliance, was to be ruled by his elder son, Isildur. Yet, it fell into decay, conquered by the Lord of the Nazgûl and his army of evil men. Why was that? The fact of disunity among the Northern Dúnedain, splitting Arnor into smaller realms, was an obvious problem. But it has always seemed to me that the Witch-king's victory over them was easier than it should have been. Their Tower of Amon Sûl was taken and razed. The capital city of Annúminas was deserted, and the other city, Fornost, was captured. The reader is told comparatively little about the Arnorian cities and fortifications, but they seem to have been less strong than their southern counterparts. Arnor also lacked a port of its own, whereas Gondor was a sea-power. Orthanc was made of an apparently unbreakable rocklike substance and had never been captured. The walls of Minas Anor were fashioned of the same stuff. Why did the Southern Kingdom have those advantages the Northern Realm lacked, especially considering Arnor was to have been the seat of Elendil?
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#2 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I think a big factor is that Gondor was not subservient to Arnor, but an equal and independent country. It wasn't some kind of colony. Therefore, it wasn't obliged to keep Arnor militarily stronger than itself.
The second big factor is men. Fortifications and towers mean nothing if there are no men to defend them. Arnor could have had the strongest cities, but because of the divide between men they were all weakened from inside.
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#3 | |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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After the destruction of Morgoth, I don't think evil was ever strong enough to defeat the West by might alone. It needed to corrupt them to gain the victory.
Apart from the lack of men power that has been noted due to plague etc we have to take into account exactly who Arnor was fighting for the most part. It was not the Witch King that destroyed Arnor, but the civil wars for me. Just look at how the Civil War in Gondor destroyed the capital city. It was probably the Numenoreans themselves that found ways to destroy the fortresses and cities of Arnor. Think what happened to Osgiliath and then remember than Minas Morgul was going to be completely destroyed. Once Arnor had sufficiently destroyed themselves, they became easy pickings for the Witch-King. |
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#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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nah,there are civil war in arnor,but it was mainly rhudaur vs cardolan,arthedain still maintain peace,although maybe there are some difference with rhudaur.the witch-king is the one that make arnor fell,but maybe the harsher climate of the north that make arnor dont have as much population as gondro,i think that many northern men(of numenorean descent)move to gondor because of the climate in gondor is nicer.when angmar attack,arnor would have much less population than it used to be.
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#6 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
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Quote:
By the time of the 7th ruler of Arthedain there were no descendants of Isildur in the other 2 divisions of Arnor, although there were still a few Dúnedain still abiding in Rhudaur even though it was controlled by a lord of the Hillmen. In the 1600s a plague wiped out the Dúnedain of Cardolan and their last prince died in the war of 1409 with Angmar. Quote:
They really dwindled in numbers quickly up north. About 200 years after this war the whole population of Dúnedain in Cardolan was wiped out by a plague. The Elves helped get them out of this jam. Quote:
"Then Eärnil sent his son Eärnur north with a fleet, as swiftly as he could, and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late.... when Eärnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond were also filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a great war of kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a SMALL sending-force of the whole might of Gondor." [Appendix A., Gondor and the heirs of Anárion] This minor force seemed to the Men up north to be great. That's the difference between the two kingdoms and this is a Gondor in its decline.
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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But arthedain and cardolan wereable to hold the witch king for hundreds of years,with cardolan and arthedain working together,they could prevent angmar from invading.they cant directly assault cardolan because arthedain can sent armies from weather hills and struck their flank and rear.angmar was forced to make all-out assault,with several armies to distract the defenses while the main one going to cardolan.this show that if angmar dont use such tactics,then earnil(ur?)couldarrive in time.
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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And from tolkien gateway,in the fall of fornost,arthedain have at least 10.000 troops,with several thousand elves,and 500 hobbits.that 10.000 is quite a lot,and surely able to man every wall of fornost.
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#9 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I sort of see Arthedain's reaction to Earnur's GEF as not unlike that of the beleaguered sixth-century more-or-less "Romans" (of the Papal City and not much else) when Belisarius' vast Eastern Roman force landed in Italy.
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#10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
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"In token of this claim all the kings of Arthedain, and the chieftains after them, take names with the prefix aran, ar(a) signifying 'high king'." [PoM-E; ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil] "In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor." [Appendix A., The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain] (7) Argeleb l (8) Arveleg l (9) Araphor (10) Argeleb (11) Arvegil (12) Arveleg ll (13) Araval (14) Araphant (15) Arvedui When the Dúnedain were fighting each other, Arthedain/Rhudaur over Weathertop, the latter had men in league with Angmar. "The Witch-king of Angmar taking advantage of war among the Dunedain comes down out of the North. He overruns Cardolan and Rhudaur." [PoM-E; ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil] Cardolan did aid Arthedain, but Weathertop was overrun with a huge army from Angmar 50 years later. The people of Angmar chased and killed the remaining Dúnedain of Rhudaur and those of Cardolan took refuge at or by the Barrowdowns. In the final assault that finally broke the last defense I believe there was ONLY Arthedain at this point. The other lands had long been ravaged and the Dúnedain too diminished at this point. When Arvedui came to Gondor to claim the kingship it was not Arnor that they saw as a small thing, "to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing" [Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]. So there was no other Dúnedain kingdom left for the armies of Angmar to go through before assaulting Fornost in 1974. They were fighting the people of Angmar even before "the Witch-king was preparing a last stroke against it in 1973." Over 300 years before that in 1636 the Great Plague had wiped out the remaining Dúnedain of Cardolan. So for some time it was really Angmar vs. Arthedain and "King Araphant continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Agmar, and Arvedui when he succeeded did likewise;" it was in 1964 when Arvedui had become king.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
In terms of the "ease" of Angmar's conquest, however, might it also be a factor in the failure of Arnor that it is where Sauron struck hardest first? Gondor endured war and strife through the Third Age as well, of course, and events like the Wainrider wars and the Balchoth invasion were orchestrated by Sauron, but they were largely indirect. It was to the dismantling of Arnor that Sauron brought his strength to bear more directly in the shape of the Lord of the Nazgûl and more traditionally "Sauronic" forces: Orcs, Troll, wolves, evil spirits and the like. The attacks on both realms are calculated, but Angmar's war against Arnor seems more directly "managed" to me, whereas it feels like the invasions of Gondor mostly involved Sauron giving the Easterlings a push in that direction and leaving the rest up to them. Angmar arose in 1300 but Arthedain didn't fall until 1974. 674 years doesn't seem like too easy a defeat, although of course by comparison to real history the nations of Men in Middle-earth always seem to endure for an implausibly long time. I suppose the longevity of the Dúnedain might account somewhat for that.
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#12 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Gondor had embraced the Northmen as allies, and indeed as marriage material. If Arnor had found some "wild" Men to bring into their fold, I wonder if that could have helped them. I still wondered, too, why Gondor got an indestructible tower and similar wall, while Arnor lost out. An answer presents itself now, that in the South was where the obvious threat was nearer. Mordor was the main concern, so if you have only a certain amount of a strong building material, you put it in Gondor. ![]()
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#13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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"the signs of decay had then already appeared; for the high men of the South married late, and their children were few. The first childless king was Falastur, and the second Narmacil l, the son of Atanatar Alcarin." [Appendix A., Gondor and the heirs of Anárion] Narmacil lived 245 years and Falastur lived for 259 years. I suppose they couldn't find the time to make it happens in all those years. I mean even as old men I'd think they could still have kids. Atanatar was descended from the nephew of Falastur. It seems to me that these guys were pretty much out and about a lot, on adventures, fighting and exploring, like the 6th King of Númenor who had only one kid and lived for 398 years. The last king of Gondor of Anárion's line was around 122 when he perished and he had no children at all, not even a wife "he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting". He maybe had 80 years left to him at most. In any case, in either kingdom, Arnor or of Gondor, the Dúnedain were few. "All told the Dúnedain were thus from the beginning far fewer in number than the lesser men among whom they dwelt and whom they ruled, being lords of long life and great power and wisdom." [Appendix F] So clearly they must have made use of other men. Rómendacil took Northmen into his armies, his son married a Northwoman and their son became king of Gondor and replenished it's people by bringing the Northmen into their fold. Arnor: - Seperated into 3 kingdoms at odds with each other, although Cardolan did support Arthedain against Angmar. Gondor: - Remained one kingdom and had a Kin-strife "where many of the great had been slain". - Known to have replenished their population with Northmen, even to some degree many houses of the Dúnedain, including the King's, mixed with them. Both kingdoms were fighting for a long time, either among themselves or with their enemies. Gondor dealt with it better and even expanded its territories. There is some information on where Gondor may have drawn in others for manpower, but where Arnor? They had the aid of Hobbits and Elves in some of their wars, but what of inclusion of a people into their realms? There were Hillmen in Rhudaur.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#14 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Good point. Arnor was chosen because of it's disunion. How Sauron would have went had Arnor remained intact may have been a toss of the coin. Perhaps the indirect attacks, or the use of people inside the realms to cause disruptions may have been used anyways. He did make use of Dúnedain and clearly they are susceptible to his influence. He made a mess with them on Númenor. I think he'd have tried to slowly chip away in any case and yea Arnor did not fall so fast even though it did fall. It was around for nearly 2000 years and fighting about 600 years with Angmar.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#15 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
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Quote:
"Gondor" does, after all, mean (literally) "Stone-Land" and so would be more likely to have such features to be used and shaped than Eriador (where Arnor was established). |
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#16 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
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#17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I'd go with the second, since if played correctly it might, theoretically leave Sauron with a Numenor like situation; an Arnor corrupted, under his control, and still pretty unified and undiminished. With that Sauron might actually be able to play on the pride of the Kings of Arnor enough to make them attempt to invade Gondor to try and claim it's throne as well. And if that happened Sauron would benefiet no matter what. If Arnor actually accomplished such a conquest, Sauron would rule all of the West and would have pretty much won everything. If not, the war would have likely weakened Gondor significantly; and Sauron could have simply had the WK sweep down from Angmar with his armies and take over while they were too damaged to put up sufficient resistance. Gondor is stronger than Arnor, and with it's indestrucable city probably always was, but I tend to think Unified Arnor was probably not so weak that an assault by them would be a cakewalk for Gondor to repulse.
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#18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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I'm checking Appendix F and it seems that some of the other men that inhabited Arnor, were the Dunlendings who used to live by the White Mountains north of Dol Amroth, and went north to the southern Misty Mountains and from there to the Barrowdowns. The Men of Bree are their descendants, "but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor".
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#19 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Quote:
Of the materials I have never been able to disambiguate, one was about the Amon Sul Palantir. We know it was large, like the Osgiliath master stone of the South, but was Amon Sul oriented as the Osgiliath subordinate or not? Just speculating, but it seems that knowing which way this item goes, may be an insight into Elendil's ideas about the distribution of power in the realms. For example, it seems that a lot of fortifications went into hedging in Mordor after he Last Alliance, where there was recognition of victory, but not of eternal vanquishment of Sauron. I wonder if that was part of Elendil's planning, where sovereignty over the North Realm emphasised something else. What, I don't quite know. We also knew that Arnor was a less densely populated realm, covering a very large area of governance. Strategically, I imagine this was pivotal in its conquest. I never understood why, after Arvedui and Earnil, why Aragorn's ancestor was not encouraged to take up, if not the High Kingship, then the rule of the realm of Arnor. I never understood why the kingdom was not rebuilt. Though, I recall reading that it was the presence of the Barrow Wights in the resting mounds of the Kings that did have a big part in this. We're told that the presence of the Wights was anathema to the Realm, yet Aragorn did not seem to mind in FA..... just some thoughts. Last edited by Ivriniel; 05-06-2014 at 07:52 PM. |
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#20 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
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Gondor
Orthanc-stone - Isengard, had a fixed orientation. Arnor-stone = Minas Tirith, had a fixed orientation. Ithil-stone = Minas Ithil, it was thought to be either lost or captured by Sauron. It had a fixed orientation. Osgiliath-stone = Osgiliath, it was the master stone and could eavesdrop on 2 other stones in communion, other stones could not do this, they would just see the stones as blank. It was a big stone that could only be lifted by more than one man. It was lost in the waters when King Eldacar was attacked the the tower burned. It could be revolved and still see in any direction. Arnor Amon Sûl-stone = The chief stone of the North; it was the largest and most powerful stone, mainly used to communicate with Gondor. It had to be lifted by more than one man. It was lost at sea. It could be revolved and still see in any direction. Elendil Stone = Emyn Beraid, was not used for communication, but rather to look to the West where even Eressëa could be seen. Annúminas-stone = Annúminas, Fornost, was lost in the sea. It had a fixed orientation.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#21 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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By fixed orientation, meaning, like to look west, the west side of the palantír had to face west and you had to be on the east side to look in the western direction. Then to look north, or NW/NE you'd have to look through the south, SE/SW sides.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#22 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I'm not sure if the Dúnedain of the south were ready yet to embrace an heir of Isildur and the Rangers were powerless at this point. Arnor was done, "for the Dúnedain were now few and ALL the peoples of Eriador diminished." [Appendix A; The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain]
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#23 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Feb 2014
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So, Elendil places the Master Stone in the Southern Kingdom, not the Northern Kingdom, with Anarion overseeing that, although Elendil, we're told, assumed reign from the principal kingdom 'of the North'.
This seems to me a problem. How does the primary overseeing realm get reconnaissance from the Amon Sul stone, where that can be considered wholly reliable, where the possibility exists that the Southern Master Stone can shut out communications to Amon Sul? There is, at best, a reliance upon trust to ensure fidelity to sovereignty matters, and at worst, the potential for insurrection, covert, Machiavellian events and deception. Unless, that is, the Amon Sul Stone had other properties we have not been told about. |
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#24 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Quote:
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The Stones could be a drain mentally and usually the Kings had people below them make use of the other Stones to scan the realm so they could be on top of any potential enemies and to communicate. In fact, remember the episode between Arvedui and the Council in Gondor when he claimed the High Kingship? This was more likely than not done with the Stones. In Note #1 of The Palantíri: "Doubtless they were used in consultations between Arnor and Gondor in the year 1944 concerning the succession to the Crown." Except for it being like the Osgiliath-stone, minus the eavesdropping capability, it would be more powerful than the other Stones.
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#25 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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I think it has to do with arnor smaller population.arnor was suffering heavy losses at the war of the last alliance.they were already dwindling when angmar atrack,from migration to the south,harsh winter,and civil war.so,the sucessor state were greatly weakened when angmar attack,although they maybe coud still muster 20.000-30.000,because at the siege of fornost,arthedain had 10.000,remnant of arnor's troops.
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#26 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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It is hard to understand how Numenorean fortifications of Elendil's primary realm should be more vulnerable than the Gondor fortifications.
Because one kingdom was next-door to Mordor and the other wasn't? Gondor seems at all times to have been more populous. When Elendil's boys washed ashore there was already a substantial Numenorean town at Pelargir, a population of Numenoreans in Belfalas/Dor-en-Ernil, and fairly considerable non-Dunedain populations in the mountains and coasts. Arnor wasn't I think as empty as it would become, but still one doesn't get the impression of numbers. Elendil, one is tempted to think, viewed the place strategically, as a bridge-realm linking Lindon in the west with Rivendell in the east.
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#27 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Quote:
And, of course, his very name means "Elf-Friend", so it would be natural for him to reside closer to the largest kingdom of his friends (Gil-galad's realm in Lindon). That Sauron was still around was something he only learned later (it was over 100 years before Sauron revealed himself and attacked). |
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#28 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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I do think Elendil probably made Arnor his home in part because of the realms of the High-king of the Noldor in Lindon, & Rivendell. However, he was driven in that direction by the destruction of Númenor, not that this is where he was planning on going in the first place. Just as his sons were driven to the south by the waves. There were apparently many sailors looking for the Meneltarma, and the fear of death was still on them, and they ever longed for the West. Also I believe at this point in time since they did not know that Sauron survived there was probably no thought to building fortifications to prepare for him. Now surely they have powerful enemies because when Sauron did return and build up his forces it is said, "among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor." [Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age, p. 363] This is because there were Dúnedain who settled in the East who gladly turned to Sauron. Where Isildur and Anárion came was basically a spot where the Faithful made their homes. It is said that two of these Dúnedain, "Herumor and Fuinur... rose to power among the Haradrim" [p. 363] since before they moved to the South due to the threat of Gil-galad.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#29 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
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Ar-pharazon wasnt dead,he was buried with those who set foot on aman in the cave of the forgotten
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#30 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Dead or held in suspended animation, my point was that Ar-Pharazôn was already at death's door at this point in his life whereas the Faithful were much longer lived. I do agree with you that he was probably not dead, thanks for the correction.
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