Arnor- Designed For Failure?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There are stark differences apparent between the Númenórean Kingdoms in Exile in Middle-earth, Arnor and Gondor.

One would think Arnor had the greater importance to the Númenóreans, since that was the realm of Elendil himself, and after the war of the Last Alliance, was to be ruled by his elder son, Isildur. Yet, it fell into decay, conquered by the Lord of the Nazgûl and his army of evil men. Why was that? The fact of disunity among the Northern Dúnedain, splitting Arnor into smaller realms, was an obvious problem. But it has always seemed to me that the Witch-king's victory over them was easier than it should have been. Their Tower of Amon Sûl was taken and razed. The capital city of Annúminas was deserted, and the other city, Fornost, was captured. The reader is told comparatively little about the Arnorian cities and fortifications, but they seem to have been less strong than their southern counterparts.
Arnor also lacked a port of its own, whereas Gondor was a sea-power.

Orthanc was made of an apparently unbreakable rocklike substance and had never been captured. The walls of Minas Anor were fashioned of the same stuff.
Why did the Southern Kingdom have those advantages the Northern Realm lacked, especially considering Arnor was to have been the seat of Elendil?

I've often wondered about Arnor on similar veins, though I had not drawn the corollary about Orthanc-stone and Amon Sul. It is hard to understand how Numenorean fortifications of Elendil's primary realm should be more vulnerable than the Gondor fortifications. Nice point Inziladun.

Of the materials I have never been able to disambiguate, one was about the Amon Sul Palantir. We know it was large, like the Osgiliath master stone of the South, but was Amon Sul oriented as the Osgiliath subordinate or not? Just speculating, but it seems that knowing which way this item goes, may be an insight into Elendil's ideas about the distribution of power in the realms. For example, it seems that a lot of fortifications went into hedging in Mordor after he Last Alliance, where there was recognition of victory, but not of eternal vanquishment of Sauron. I wonder if that was part of Elendil's planning, where sovereignty over the North Realm emphasised something else. What, I don't quite know.

We also knew that Arnor was a less densely populated realm, covering a very large area of governance. Strategically, I imagine this was pivotal in its conquest. I never understood why, after Arvedui and Earnil, why Aragorn's ancestor was not encouraged to take up, if not the High Kingship, then the rule of the realm of Arnor. I never understood why the kingdom was not rebuilt. Though, I recall reading that it was the presence of the Barrow Wights in the resting mounds of the Kings that did have a big part in this. We're told that the presence of the Wights was anathema to the Realm, yet Aragorn did not seem to mind in FA.....

just some thoughts.

[Belegorn]

Gondor

Orthanc-stone - Isengard, had a fixed orientation.
Arnor-stone = Minas Tirith, had a fixed orientation.
Ithil-stone = Minas Ithil, it was thought to be either lost or captured by Sauron. It had a fixed orientation.
Osgiliath-stone = Osgiliath, it was the master stone and could eavesdrop on 2 other stones in communion, other stones could not do this, they would just see the stones as blank. It was a big stone that could only be lifted by more than one man. It was lost in the waters when King Eldacar was attacked the the tower burned. It could be revolved and still see in any direction.

Arnor

Amon Sûl-stone = The chief stone of the North; it was the largest and most powerful stone, mainly used to communicate with Gondor. It had to be lifted by more than one man. It was lost at sea. It could be revolved and still see in any direction.
Elendil Stone = Emyn Beraid, was not used for communication, but rather to look to the West where even Eressëa could be seen.
Annúminas-stone = Annúminas, Fornost, was lost in the sea. It had a fixed orientation.

[Belegorn]

By fixed orientation, meaning, like to look west, the west side of the palantír had to face west and you had to be on the east side to look in the western direction. Then to look north, or NW/NE you'd have to look through the south, SE/SW sides.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I never understood why, after Arvedui and Earnil, why Aragorn's ancestor was not encouraged to take up, if not the High Kingship, then the rule of the realm of Arnor. I never understood why the kingdom was not rebuilt.

I'm not sure if the Dúnedain of the south were ready yet to embrace an heir of Isildur and the Rangers were powerless at this point. Arnor was done, "for the Dúnedain were now few and ALL the peoples of Eriador diminished." [Appendix A; The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain]

[Ivriniel]

So, Elendil places the Master Stone in the Southern Kingdom, not the Northern Kingdom, with Anarion overseeing that, although Elendil, we're told, assumed reign from the principal kingdom 'of the North'.

This seems to me a problem. How does the primary overseeing realm get reconnaissance from the Amon Sul stone, where that can be considered wholly reliable, where the possibility exists that the Southern Master Stone can shut out communications to Amon Sul?

There is, at best, a reliance upon trust to ensure fidelity to sovereignty matters, and at worst, the potential for insurrection, covert, Machiavellian events and deception.

Unless, that is, the Amon Sul Stone had other properties we have not been told about.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, Elendil places the Master Stone in the Southern Kingdom, not the Northern Kingdom, with Anarion overseeing that, although Elendil, we're told, assumed reign from the principal kingdom 'of the North'.

From Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, "Three Elendil took, and his sons two each. Those of Elendil were set in towers upon Emyn Beraid, and upon Amon Sûl, and in the city of Annúminas. But those of his sons were at Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, and at Orthanc and in Osgiliath." [p. 362] One thing of note is that the towers of Emyn Beraid "were raised by Gil-galad for Elendil". So there are parts of Arnor that were not built by the Númenóreans at all.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

This seems to me a problem. How does the primary overseeing realm get reconnaissance from the Amon Sul stone, where that can be considered wholly reliable, where the possibility exists that the Southern Master Stone can shut out communications to Amon Sul?

It's more like if two stones are in communion, say the Orthanc and the Ithil-stone, any other Stone would see them as blank. The one at Osgiliath of course did not have this limitation. So it can't shut out communications, rather it can eavesdrop on two other stones in communication. Gandalf himself tells Pippen, "at Osgiliath they could survey them all together at one time." [TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 11, p. 240] It is also said how Denethor and Saruman could have had communion between themselves without Sauron being able to see what they were communicating. Between them they were working the Arnor, Orthanc, and Ithil Stones, none of which can do what the Osgiliath-stone could. If Sauron possessed that, he'd be able to see what Saruman and Denethor were communicating about.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

There is, at best, a reliance upon trust to ensure fidelity to sovereignty matters, and at worst, the potential for insurrection, covert, Machiavellian events and deception.

At first, at least, they were in the possession of Elendil's sons. Did a High King up North figure that maybe he should move the Osgiliath-stone up North so that they alone could look into the conversations between other Stones? I do not know.

The Stones could be a drain mentally and usually the Kings had people below them make use of the other Stones to scan the realm so they could be on top of any potential enemies and to communicate. In fact, remember the episode between Arvedui and the Council in Gondor when he claimed the High Kingship? This was more likely than not done with the Stones. In Note #1 of The Palantíri:

"Doubtless they were used in consultations between Arnor and Gondor in the year 1944 concerning the succession to the Crown."

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Unless, that is, the Amon Sul Stone had other properties we have not been told about.

Except for it being like the Osgiliath-stone, minus the eavesdropping capability, it would be more powerful than the other Stones.

[tom the eldest]

I think it has to do with arnor smaller population.arnor was suffering heavy losses at the war of the last alliance.they were already dwindling when angmar atrack,from migration to the south,harsh winter,and civil war.so,the sucessor state were greatly weakened when angmar attack,although they maybe coud still muster 20.000-30.000,because at the siege of fornost,arthedain had 10.000,remnant of arnor's troops.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is hard to understand how Numenorean fortifications of Elendil's primary realm should be more vulnerable than the Gondor fortifications.

Because one kingdom was next-door to Mordor and the other wasn't?

Gondor seems at all times to have been more populous. When Elendil's boys washed ashore there was already a substantial Numenorean town at Pelargir, a population of Numenoreans in Belfalas/Dor-en-Ernil, and fairly considerable non-Dunedain populations in the mountains and coasts.

Arnor wasn't I think as empty as it would become, but still one doesn't get the impression of numbers. Elendil, one is tempted to think, viewed the place strategically, as a bridge-realm linking Lindon in the west with Rivendell in the east.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Elendil, one is tempted to think, viewed the place strategically, as a bridge-realm linking Lindon in the west with Rivendell in the east.

And, perhaps also, he saw it as a place to rest from strife - far from the reminder of evil in Mordor. Leave that to his sons who were young (relatively) and energetic - let him enjoy the peace he had earned (in his view, maybe) in his old age.

And, of course, his very name means "Elf-Friend", so it would be natural for him to reside closer to the largest kingdom of his friends (Gil-galad's realm in Lindon).

That Sauron was still around was something he only learned later (it was over 100 years before Sauron revealed himself and attacked).