who are the nazgul?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.


See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

I do not think they are equal at all. The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing. As I inferred, there are plenty of textual references regarding Númenórean black magic, black arts and necromancy, or at least implied sorcery; whereas, I cannot find a single instance of black magic or sorcery mentioned among the Haradrim. The Númenóreans were also far longer-lived and physically stronger than other races at that period of the 2nd Age.

If you have any evidence regarding magic use among the Haradrim (or Easterlings, for that matter), please share.

Originally Posted by mhagain

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

Umbar was founded far before the Nazgul appeared, during the colonization period beginning 1800 S.A. (natural harbor and all), but it was not heavily fortified until 2280 S.A.: ("...the strength of his [Sauron's] terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." -- Silmarillion).

As far as I can recollect, Númenórean colonies existed far further south down the coast than Umbar.

As far as the Nazgul Witchking, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I suspect he was one of the "King's Men", a provincial lord and sorcerer of one of the southern Númenórean territories (perhaps a ruling relative of Tar-Atanamir and Ancalimon); King's Men being the progenitors of the Black Númenórean race.

Yes, this was in the Second Age, and Angmar was Third Age, but I would expect a supernatural King's Man from the 2nd Age to still harbor hatred for the descendants of the Elendili still living in Arnor far more than a man of Harad.

Memories are long in Middle-earth.

EDIT: Another thing regarding Númenórean magical ability comes to mind:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." -- ROtK

Obviously the Númenóreans and their descendants, both the Arnorions (this smith of Westernesse) and Black Númenóreans (like Beruthiel and MoS), had such capabilities.