WW CV: They Should Make a Movie About This! (Game Thread)

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Such a terrible, terrible thing to happen to the poor Professor- regardless of whether his fate was death or one of the world's large assortment of Clevelands.
[/B]

Maybe each body part went to a different Cleveland. A spleen in Cleveland, OH. An arm in Cleveland, GA. Perhaps a gallbladder in Cleveland, NC. What a disgusting prospect.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Who here actually liked the movies? Please raise your hand - I'm sorry to say, I'm afraid you might be one of the murderers!

*Tentatively raises a hand* Before you throw rotten produce at me, I like the LOTR as movies, not as adaptations. *ducks a blow to the head* Though I do hate TH with a burning passion. Please let that be my saving grace.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Loslote (or Kitanna) will be lynched.

Woe is me.

Lots of talk about the Maniac. But it looks like the role is a wildcard innocent. A chaotic good perhaps? Or maybe chaotic evil if the Maniac chose to align with the wolves. (Oh my, I wish my friend had never taught me how to play D&D. It's infiltrating my life.)

On an unrelated topic can we throw my neighbors to the moviephiles. 'Cause the bass on their sound system is shaking my desk. :/

[Inziladun]

Apologies for not noting this sooner, but votes should be like this: ++Inzil. That's for ease of counting.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So let me make a couple of predictions about how the Day1 will proceed after this utterly typical beginning:

Nerwen will miss the vote.
Kath will miss the entire Day.
Legate will get into posting novel-length stuff by the deadline.
Loslote (or Kitanna) will be lynched.
Nogrod will be uncharacteristically quiet (okay, you can't really credit me with being a psychic if I get this right, I happen to know he has a busy day in RL).
Speaking of psychics, Shasta will use half of his posts for praising Nerwen (and vice versa, but he always seems to be the one to start).

As a visitor from the future, I can confirm that all of these will happen. Oh, wait. Not the time travel theme this game. Disregard. You're still probably correct though.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Maniac is like a Hunter in that they are in with the village. Basically an Ordo with an added quantity of unpredictability surrounding their death.

That was informative, yet strangely unsettling.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Maybe each body part went to a different Cleveland. A spleen in Cleveland, OH. An arm in Cleveland, GA. Perhaps a gallbladder in Cleveland, NC. What a disgusting prospect.

Is it just me, or does Kitanna know too much about various Clevelands? Quite suspicious indeed.

[Kath]

Lommy ... nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Prediction = wrong. I'm here!

Inzil said the Maniac is aware of their role in the Admin Thread, and I would agree with Legate that the Maniac isn't counted in the baddie count given their variable role.

[Nogrod]

Okay. Finally here. It's been a couple of really crazy days - and what Lommy said earlier rings a truth: I'm not going to be very active toDay (too tired of trying to get a real grasp - if there is anything to grasp with this number of posts anyway) - and the DL really is 5AM so all the Finns will most probably vote earlyish this time around.

The only things that kind of give off a slight ping on the radar thus far are:

1. Nerwen's early gun-happiness - which could be just a way of trying to get the ball rolling and therefore laudable.

2. How Boro's important point was totally lost under a more or less odd discussion of whether the maniac is playing for the goodies or baddies... where the former, I think, was the obvious answer - and seems to be it. But what Boro said merits repeating: as we don't want to lynch the maniac (the danger for us is in lynching her/him) but want her/him killed by the wolves by Night (to take one of them with her/him for sure) - the wolves might like to impersonate the maniac trying to avoid lynching that way.

So let's be extra careful with that.

Other than those things, I feel I have little to say right now. But I'll sit back and relax and try to come with something / anything more constructive in a moment - even if it doesn't seem too probable with this little to draw conclusions or speculate upon.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Lommy ... nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Prediction = wrong. I'm here!

Darn, then I guess I can't steal Shasta's mantle just yet!

Glad to see the discussion (slowly) starting. It's also getting late here, but at least almost everybody has posted something already.

I'm not sure what to make of Boro's and Nogrod's underlined worry about wolves posing as the maniac. How do you do that except by fake revealing anyway? (And I see that as possibly being more beneficial to the villagers in the long run -

ACTUALLY WAIT

Wouldn't it make the most sense for the maniac to reveal RIGHT NOW?

Ta da, we have a known innocent. Or, if a wolf rises to the bait and fake reveals, the worst thing that can happen is that toDay we lynch two innocents and toMorrow we lynch a wolf, which is still a good scenario for us.

What say you?*

(* given the nature of the game, I should probably apologise for quoting movie!Aragorn)


edit: xed with Greenie's later post

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Or, if a wolf rises to the bait and fake reveals, the worst thing that can happen is that toDay we lynch two innocents and toMorrow we lynch a wolf, which is still a good scenario for us.

To clarify, by "toDay we lynch two innocents" I mean that we lynch an innocent who takes another innocent with him/her - and by the way the maniac might even take a wolf with him/her. (Now that I'm thinking a little further I'm also aware the maniac could take the seer or ranger with him/her too but personally I think it would be worth the risk because we'd still get one wolf down.)

edit: xed with both posts

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

ACTUALLY WAIT

Wouldn't it make the most sense for the maniac to reveal RIGHT NOW?

Ta da, we have a known innocent. Or, if a wolf rises to the bait and fake reveals, the worst thing that can happen is that toDay we lynch two innocents and toMorrow we lynch a wolf, which is still a good scenario for us.

What say you?*

(* given the nature of the game, I should probably apologise for quoting movie!Aragorn)

It comes down to whether we value a known innocent over possibly having the Maniac take down a wolf. I can't say.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Leg and Lom.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

It comes down to whether we value a known innocent over possibly having the Maniac take down a wolf. I can't say.

Exactly my thoughts as well.

The maniac is a powerful weapon I'd rather not lose - and would be inclined to suspect anyone who suggest us to lose her/his ability to kill a wolf. A known innocent early in the game is just one person we should not vote but whose view of things is as imperfect and indecisive as anyones.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

It comes down to whether we value a known innocent over possibly having the Maniac take down a wolf. I can't say.

Well that was so simply put that it twists my brain.

Arggh now that I'm thinking this further the game is (lovelily) frustratingly complex.

Because yes, it would be the best if the maniac is killed by the wolves.

But then again, how big are the chances that s/he gets targeted by the wolves? Like between 1/3 and 1/2. (Whereas a known innocent would be an immediate benefit, especially if it was accompanied by a known wolf.)

And now I wanted to say, scratch my plan, the maniac should just reveal if s/he's in danger of getting lynched, and suddenly I see where the concern about wolves pulling the maniac card is coming from.

Geez.

Well, scratch my plan anyway I guess, although in the end it's of course up to the maniac him/herself.

Werewolf is hard. Maybe I should shut up because I feel like flip-flopping is going to come out of my mouth (or keyboard) - if it already didn't.


edit: xed with Nogrod

[satansaloser2005]

Beg pardon. I just have to get this out of my system.

As for the penguin's plan, I think it's a little too risky, honestly. We have zero control over who the maniac takes down, and while losing the maniac could also eliminate a wolf, it could also cost us our seer or our ranger (or, knowing my luck, me, which would be just as tragic ). Sure, we would have a known innocent and eliminate a bad lynch target, but the wolves may decide it's a good idea to target them straight away. Why would the baddies want to kick the bomb? Frankly, their odds of survival are better now.

The earlier the maniac is killed, the more likely their random target won't be a wolf (the wolves are 25% of the group right now, which will almost certainly grow as the game progresses). As the group gets smaller, killing the maniac becomes a bigger risk to the wolves, so if anything, I think exposing the maniac toDay would only lead to their death toNight, and I don't think that's a good idea.

I may have thought about this a little too much.


x'd since 29, as I was distracted by food

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I could be wrong but I'd guess her "gun-happiness" was just a normal "rule of three" post - obligatory Day 1 banter.

Yeah, personally I saw it also too just as Day 1 start banter, especially since it was really one of the first posts and nothing had happened before (and everything else in the posts around it was just Cleveland-banter).

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Yes, this is a valid point and, I think, an important one, but the thing is - how does the Maniac behave? How do you impersonate a Maniac? I mean, if the Maniac plays for the village they'd want to get Night-killed, right? Which would mean they might try to impersonate the Seer, which would mean the wolves would try to impersonate the Maniac who tries to impersonate the Seer who tries to impersonate... I mean, maybe you others can follow this, but I can't, at least not this tired. Anyway what I'm saying is that catching someone "impersonating the Maniac" is easier said than done.

In shorter and clearer version, WWs might only want to impersonate a Maniac by saying "I am a Maniac!", or that's how I see it. Simply a way e.g. for a known Wolf to escape the noose, just like they have been doing with Seers for ages.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

ACTUALLY WAIT

Wouldn't it make the most sense for the maniac to reveal RIGHT NOW?

Ta da, we have a known innocent. Or, if a wolf rises to the bait and fake reveals, the worst thing that can happen is that toDay we lynch two innocents and toMorrow we lynch a wolf, which is still a good scenario for us.

What say you?*

(* given the nature of the game, I should probably apologise for quoting movie!Aragorn)

Hey, that actually might not be a bad idea at all! Of course it means exposing an innocent (a known innocent), but it

a) leaves the one known innocent alive for at least the time being
b) eliminates the risk of accidentally shooting down two innocents by lynching the Maniac during Day,
c) puts the WWs in front of the decision: to either counter-reveal or just leave the village with extra security and known innocent,
d) the WWs have to decide whether they want to "make a trade" of one of their members during Night-killing the Maniac, or just leave the known innocent (a powerful force) around. It also leaves the Ranger free to guard someone else, because the Maniac can in the worst case just "trade" him/herself. Sounds fair!

By all means... sounds really good. Gotta think about it for a bit still, but sounds really good!

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

2. How Boro's important point was totally lost under a more or less odd discussion of whether the maniac is playing for the goodies or baddies... where the former, I think, was the obvious answer - and seems to be it. But what Boro said merits repeating: as we don't want to lynch the maniac (the danger for us is in lynching her/him) but want her/him killed by the wolves by Night (to take one of them with her/him for sure) - the wolves might like to impersonate the maniac trying to avoid lynching that way.

Since the Maniac's role pretty much revolves around dying to fullfill the role, who is to say they'll align with the village? A hunter can at least chose who they think is evil, Maniac is subject to the whims of the mod-god.

I kind of see the Maniac as a potential cobbler/hunter hybrid, a wildcard as Boro put it.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Wouldn't it make the most sense for the maniac to reveal RIGHT NOW?

Ta da, we have a known innocent. Or, if a wolf rises to the bait and fake reveals, the worst thing that can happen is that toDay we lynch two innocents and toMorrow we lynch a wolf, which is still a good scenario for us.

Interesting...

Originally Posted by Lommy

To clarify, by "toDay we lynch two innocents" I mean that we lynch an innocent who takes another innocent with him/her - and by the way the maniac might even take a wolf with him/her. (Now that I'm thinking a little further I'm also aware the maniac could take the seer or ranger with him/her too but personally I think it would be worth the risk because we'd still get one wolf down.)

I don't know if this guarantees us a wolf lynch on Day 2 though. Say our Maniac reveals and is not believed and lynched. We lose three innocents before Day 2 starts. And there's only twelve villagers right?

But if the Maniac's reveal is believed we do have a known innocent. And in such a small village it could be dangerous to wait for a known innocent to appear.

I'd say the risks and the reward on this plan are probably about equal.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Since the Maniac's role pretty much revolves around dying to fullfill the role, who is to say they'll align with the village? A hunter can at least chose who they think is evil, Maniac is subject to the whims of the mod-god.

I kind of see the Maniac as a potential cobbler/hunter hybrid, a wildcard as Boro put it.

The Maniac is on the village's side. The Mod had said it several times loud and clear.

I don't know if this guarantees us a wolf lynch on Day 2 though. Say our Maniac reveals and is not believed and lynched. We lose three innocents before Day 2 starts. And there's only twelve villagers right?

But if the Maniac's reveal is believed we do have a known innocent. And in such a small village it could be dangerous to wait for a known innocent to appear.

I'd say the risks and the reward on this plan are probably about equal.

It is definitely risky. But Day 2 Wolf lynch is basically guaranteed with this. See my elaborate scheme above Because if the Maniac reveals, then I guess he/she should be believed unless there's a counter-reveal, no? I mean, no reason to lynch somebody who comes forward saying "I am the Maniac!" with no counter-reveal. And if there IS a counter-reveal, well, then one of them is a Wolf and the other is not. Simple as that. Yes, the worst ratio is losing 2 innocents to 1 Wolf, which I think is still better for the village (if you take the percentage of WWs:innocents in total, if they lose one, it hurts them more than if we lose one), especially in the beginning, OR it creates potentially an even more powerful tactical advantage - one more known piece on board, eliminating a whole one bundle of decisions we have to make (a bundle of decisions regarding one person).

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Maniac is on the village's side. The Mod had said it several times loud and clear.

I honestly don't remember reading that. I must be blind. Scratch everything I said in my last post about that. Sorry.

[Coppermirror]

I've looked back through the first two Days, and Kitanna's not one of the people who said they didn't know whether the Maniac was aware of their role or not (Nerwen day 1, Shasta day 3). She didn't make the mistake of thinking the role's kills were totally random (Sally day 1). It's more likely than not that the Maniac would have carefully read their role even if they didn't ask Inzil for clarification about the role's alignment. So I don't think Kitanna's claim is inconsistent with her being the Maniac.

A genuine innocent in danger would have much more reason to come forward as the Maniac toDay than a wolf in danger would to fake reveal. If Kitanna is the Maniac as she says, then if she thought she was in serious danger she would have no choice but to reveal like this, given that if there's a bad lynch toDay, we're sunk unless the Ranger makes a save in the Night or the Maniac is Night killed. Although...judging by the contents of her posts toDay, it seems she didn't realise this? So if she's the Maniac, she didn't factor that in. Still, even revealed, a Maniac is a big asset.

But if Kitanna's a wolf, she's got much less reason to come forward like this even if she thinks she's in a lot of danger. And since she said she had to leave for the night after her post, that would explain why she made the post ASAP rather than waiting until later. Her suggestion that if she isn't believed everyone should vote for her is bizarre, but I can't see what benefit she would get out of it either as an innocent or as a wolf.

I don't know if we should treat Kitanna as innocent for certain, but she's at least someone who shouldn't be lynched toDay on the information we currently have. The risk that she's telling the truth is too high.

[Nerwen]

Ugh! Scratch what I just said– we *are* 5:3! I was looking at the wrong post before. (That’s what I get for trying to work and play WW simultaneously.)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

I've looked back through the first two Days, and Kitanna's not one of the people who said they didn't know whether the Maniac was aware of their role or not (Nerwen day 1, Shasta day 3). She didn't make the mistake of thinking the role's kills were totally random (Sally day 1). It's more likely than not that the Maniac would have carefully read their role even if they didn't ask Inzil for clarification about the role's alignment. So I don't think Kitanna's claim is inconsistent with her being the Maniac.

A genuine innocent in danger would have much more reason to come forward as the Maniac toDay than a wolf in danger would to fake reveal. If Kitanna is the Maniac as she says, then if she thought she was in serious danger she would have no choice but to reveal like this, given that if there's a bad lynch toDay, we're sunk unless the Ranger makes a save in the Night or the Maniac is Night killed. Although...judging by the contents of her posts toDay, it seems she didn't realise this? So if she's the Maniac, she didn't factor that in. Still, even revealed, a Maniac is a big asset.

A big asset to whom? If she’s the Maniac, the wolves know not to kill her at Night, while the rest of us still can’t afford to treat her as a known innocent.

But if Kitanna's a wolf, she's got much less reason to come forward like this even if she thinks she's in a lot of danger. And since she said she had to leave for the night after her post, that would explain why she made the post ASAP rather than waiting until later. Her suggestion that if she isn't believed everyone should vote for her is bizarre, but I can't see what benefit she would get out of it either as an innocent or as a wolf.

I don't know if we should treat Kitanna as innocent for certain, but she's at least someone who shouldn't be lynched toDay on the information we currently have. The risk that she's telling the truth is too high.

I concur– but that’s also why this might actually be a rather good move for a wolf under suspicion.

Anyway, I said I was going to do that Lottialysis. I had a whole lot of things come up, but maybe I can find time now.

[A Little Green]

Almost did a Kath but didn't, thanks to Lommy for reminding me we had started! Anyway, I'm super tired so I will unfortunately have to be quite brief toDay, but should be around more toMorrow if I make it that far.

Right-o. As far as I can tell -

Nerwen discusses both Clevelands and Maniacs. Also mentions the "rule of three", which I suppose somebody has to do in every game.
Sally also mostly banters this far, and calls Inzil's rules clarification "informative, yet strangely unsettling". Something there?
Coppermirror remains on the Cleveland sector for now.
Loslote, while not discussing Cleveland, has only posted one early banter post toDay, I assume she'll be back.
Kitanna confuses me because I got the impression that she posted a lot of substance even though she mainly answered banterish posts and commented shortly on the Maniac.
Lommy adequately summarised an average Day 1 and puts in a healthy Lommy amount of AIEEEs and exclamation marks. But she's also the one to ask Inzil for clarification about the Maniac.
Legate has not posted a single novel yet! Instead, one banter about goats and technology and some other confusing stuff, and one post speculating about the Maniac. I don't really understand his "brain-shortcut" (though love that word!!) but it's probably not very relevant since it's related to speculation on a topic that was later clarified by the mod.
Nogrod hasn't posted yet but he's sitting across the table from me and typing forcefully so I bet his post will appear before mine.
Shasta isn't here either, I hope he knows the game is on!
Greenie is happy to be playing werewolf!
Kath is cute. She's also sensible about the Maniac.
Boro gets the credit for the first fully on-topic post on the thread, ie. rules speculation on the Maniac. His original interpretation is rather different from mine, and apparently that of many others as well. Could be he's just an independent thinker (we know he is), could be he's scheming, could be he was trying to provoke discussion? Anyhow I'm not worried about him at the moment.


EDIT: x-ed with Noggie

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

1. Nerwen's early gun-happiness - which could be just a way of trying to get the ball rolling and therefore laudable.

I could be wrong but I'd guess her "gun-happiness" was just a normal "rule of three" post - obligatory Day 1 banter.

Originally Posted by Nog

2. How Boro's important point was totally lost under a more or less odd discussion of whether the maniac is playing for the goodies or baddies... where the former, I think, was the obvious answer - and seems to be it. But what Boro said merits repeating: as we don't want to lynch the maniac (the danger for us is in lynching her/him) but want her/him killed by the wolves by Night (to take one of them with her/him for sure) - the wolves might like to impersonate the maniac trying to avoid lynching that way.

So let's be extra careful with that.

Yes, this is a valid point and, I think, an important one, but the thing is - how does the Maniac behave? How do you impersonate a Maniac? I mean, if the Maniac plays for the village they'd want to get Night-killed, right? Which would mean they might try to impersonate the Seer, which would mean the wolves would try to impersonate the Maniac who tries to impersonate the Seer who tries to impersonate... I mean, maybe you others can follow this, but I can't, at least not this tired. Anyway what I'm saying is that catching someone "impersonating the Maniac" is easier said than done.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Yes, this is a valid point and, I think, an important one, but the thing is - how does the Maniac behave? How do you impersonate a Maniac? I mean, if the Maniac plays for the village they'd want to get Night-killed, right? Which would mean they might try to impersonate the Seer, which would mean the wolves would try to impersonate the Maniac who tries to impersonate the Seer who tries to impersonate...

Love you!

And you're right. It is hard to say. But...

But there might arise a situations where it would not be that complicated. I was not calling for a definitive plan to follow certain kind of acts but to keep our eyes open where that might be plausible (naturally it's not wise to specualte too much on those beforehand).


EDIT: X'd with Lommylings

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

There isn't really much to go on with, indeed, I will just observe on the observations, then. I guess it would be interesting, in the light of any future events, to see the interactions or how people perceive others here.

I like Nogrod's pointing out of the thing Boro said about the Maniac (that WWs might be impresonating him/her), but then again since the Mod has confirmed how the role works, it's essentially the same thing as impersonating any Gifted in any normal game. But of course, it's probably the best way for a Wolf to avoid lynch. Unless they also want to flush out a Seer and pretend that they are the Seer instead. I guess that might bring some interesting dilemmas to the Wolves who are under threat of lynching and consider reveal, which might play nicely to the village's hand.

I also like Greenie's summary of people, but rather for its amusement value. The only thing I find remarkable is her "buddying-up" attitude towards Boro and (very, very slightly) Kath. But I guess that would be just more interesting in hindsight if the situation seemed like it was relevant (e.g. Greenie turning out to be a Wolf or somesuch), for now there's really nothing much overall.

I am definitely going to post here still later, in the hope of reading something more before that and thus being able to make some more reasonable list of everyone and get some ideas from it. I wanted to say "third time's the charm", except that I think that would be already my fourth post, so anyway, before the next time I post I just hope more people would show up so I can post something substantial based on that. Also, with other fellow Finns, not going to stay up too late. So hope people just are around and post a bit...

EDIT: x-ed with second Greenie, Lommy and Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

since the Mod has confirmed how the role works, it's essentially the same thing as impersonating any Gifted in any normal game.

Well yes, and no.

I think the maniac is actually very interesting character in this game because s/he can deliver a certain kill if the wolves try to get at her/him during the Night. That is not usual. Also - as the other side of the coin - s/he is dangerous to us exactly lynched: Legate actually himself mentioned earlier thet the manic can take down a wolf as well if lyched - which is true, but something I don't think lessens the danger considerably.

So this maniac is - to my mind - no regular game-character and thus impersonating the maniac would have different dynamics from impersonating some other roles more regular to the game.


EDIT: Sally: Check the rules! The maniac delivers a certain wolf-kill if targeted by Night!