Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[Alcuin]

Tale of Years (Appendix B) says that Shagrat arrived at Barad-dûr with Frodo’s cloak, mail-shirt, and sword on March 17. Even if we assume the Nazgûl that descended upon Cirith Ungol informed Sauron about the spy captured outside Shelob’s Lair and his escape in the company of someone else, there is no indication that Sauron understood its significance until Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath Naur. March 17 was four days after Faramir fell outside the walls of Minas Tirith, and Frodo fell wounded by Shelob. (Reader's Companion adds that Sauron had Shagrat executed.) Sauron’s actions indicate he believed Aragorn (or Gandalf) had the Ring: it readily explained Saruman’s defeat; thus Sauron’s haste to blockade Minas Tirith before Aragorn could arrive.

Frodo was wounded on the morning of March 13 (Hammond and Scull provide a synopsis of Tolkien’s notes on dates and times in Reader's Companion pp 486-487) and taken by Orcs “in the late afternoon or evening.” Faramir was wounded at about the same time, in the last hour of the day (“It drew now to evening by the hour…”, “Siege of Gondor”, p 819). After that, many residents of Minas Tirith saw in the Tower of Ecthelion “a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.” I agree with Inziladun that Cirith Ungol is one obvious place for Denethor to scry with the palantír. To Denethor’s credit, he give nothing away to Sauron. Had he exposed his knowledge of the Hobbits in Mordor, this tale would have a different end.

[FerniesApple]

I have a theory that Sauron never contemplated that the Ring was in the hands of the Hobbits until he 'saw' Pippin in Minas Tirith through the Palantir Denethor was using. He may have come to know that a Hobbit was living in Minas Tirith by forcing Denethor to give up information against his will, probing his mind or thoughts. I think Sauron thought the attack would come from Minas Tirith rather than through the backdoor, he allowed Denethor to use the Palantir, not because a mortal had the resilience to resist but to gain information and spread disinformation like propaganda. No mortal could resist a direct atack from Sauron, only Aragorn had the mental strength and that not for long on his own.

[Belegorn]

I'm not sure that Sauron could have forced Denethor to give up information against his will. The Stones were his to use by right and he had long practice in their use and obviously was strong-willed.

[FerniesApple]

sorry I cant agree. Denethor lost his wits trying to fence with Sauron, he was mortal, even Aragorn wouldnt risk it.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

sorry I cant agree. Denethor lost his wits trying to fence with Sauron, he was mortal, even Aragorn wouldnt risk it.

I can't agree with this. Denethor lost his wits when he thought Faramir was dealt a mortal blow.

According to Aragorn himself, he did use the Stone and revealed himself to Sauron before they took the Paths of the Dead.

Originally Posted by RotK; The Passing of the Grey Company

I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely. It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. <...> when I mastered the Stone, I learned many things. A grave peril I saw coming unlooked for upon Gondor from the South that will draw off great strength from the defense of Minas Tirith.

The Stones were used for communication in the realm of the Dúnedain, but Sauron "used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands." [The Palantíri, Note #5]

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales; The Palantíri

the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose. It was Sauron who made them sinister, and instruments of domination and deceit.

Denethor also had a right to the Stone as warden of the Kings. However, Gandalf had his doubts about Denethor, that perhaps he too, like Saruman, had surrendered to Sauron. Take note of what is said concerning those who had a right to use the Stones.

Originally Posted by The Palantíri

In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against Sauron himself, by the fact the Stones were far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true "Heirs of Elendil" (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron.

<...>

Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. <...> the Arnor stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.

He never dominated Denethor and therefore could not force him to reveal his thought to him. It is said that Sauron may have tried to mess with Denethor but he was ever able to wrench the Stone from Sauron. So I would say that the only information Sauron got was not from Denethor, but from scrying the Stone and looking upon the land of Gondor, as the Dúnedain used to do when they watched their borders with the Stones and kept and eye on their enemies.

[FerniesApple]

Fair enough, but Denethor was pretty much teetering on the edge by the time Faramir was injured. So why the sudden collapse of his sanity into madness? Only a person who has been worn down by great peril snaps like that. Before Fara mirs injury Denethor had been in full control of his mind and was defending the city with some ability, he wasnt giving up to despair like film Denethor, so my question is would the apparent 'death' of Faramir, even though it must have been possible to ascertain whether he had a pulse or not, been enough to make Denethor go mad? My view is the long struggles with the palantir corrupted his mind, letting Saurons messages of despair fill him with dread. Denethor was a mortal man and not Young, he was still strong but not as strong as Aragorn mentally. After all Aragorn had experience of toughing it out in the wilds, good battle training, Denethor was used to an easy life in an Ivory tower.

[Belegorn]

When Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith Pippen takes note of Denethor during his battle of wills with Gandalf.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

Pippen saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, <...> Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older.

He sees a vibrant man of power. However, when Faramir is wounded this changes. Also Faramir does have a Morgul-wound, so feeling for a pulse would not matter. He'd been sick for a while, poisoned. They all knew what would happen.

Originally Posted by RotK; The Siege of Gondor

Faramir lay upon his bed in the chamber of the White Tower, wandering in a desperate fever;

<...>

as he [Pippin] watched, it seemed to him that Denethor grew old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and his stern mind was overthrown. Grief maybe had wrought it, and remorse. He saw tears on that once tearless face, more unbearable than wrath.

<...>

"I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here he lies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending, even the House of the Stewards has failed. Mean folk shall rule the last remnants of the Kings of Men, lurking in the hills until all are hounded out."

He's in despair about the fate of his son, "He might speak before the end. But that is near." and also about about the fate of the Dúnedain. But it seems clear to me that what has broken him is Faramir's injury and oncoming death, as he sat by his side and could care less about what was happening outside his halls.

However, Gandalf makes the claim that "the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK; The Pyre of Denethor]

I would not say Denethor had it easy. Gondor was ever at war and I would assume that Denethor was a captain in the armies of Gondor under his father, just as his sons were under him. The Stewards, it seems, as with the kings, were always part of the army.

You have compared Denethor to Aragorn before and it is said that they were as like as to the nearest of kin. So physically and mentally it would appear they were very much alike and not quite so different [Appendix A; The Stewards]. They were even about the same age.

[Galadriel55]

I believe that Denethor could and did resist Sauron for a good while. However, his mental defense couldn't have lasted too long. I don't think he gave away too much information over the years of using the Palantir. He was weakened by the end - but that's because of all his previous hard-won victories. Aragorn isn't the only strong-willed guy around.

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I have a theory that Sauron never contemplated that the Ring was in the hands of the Hobbits until he 'saw' Pippin in Minas Tirith through the Palantir Denethor was using.

What happened to "Shire... Baggins..."? Sauron knew a hobbit had the Ring for a long time. Furthermore, how is this relevant? Sauron saw Pippin when the said hobbit looked into Saruman's Palantir, much before he came to Minas Tirith. And either way, how does the Ring itself tie in?

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I believe that Denethor could and did resist Sauron for a good while. However, his mental defense couldn't have lasted too long. I don't think he gave away too much information over the years of using the Palantir. He was weakened by the end - but that's because of all his previous hard-won victories. Aragorn isn't the only strong-willed guy around.



What happened to "Shire... Baggins..."? Sauron knew a hobbit had the Ring for a long time. Furthermore, how is this relevant? Sauron saw Pippin when the said hobbit looked into Saruman's Palantir, much before he came to Minas Tirith. And either way, how does the Ring itself tie in?

I think Sauron let Denethor use the palantir because it suited him, he didnt need to overpower Denethor, just keep him dangling for more information. Sauron would have known Denethor was using the palantir but kept him there like a mouse in front of a large cat, playing with him.

As for Pippin I got confused with the palantir of Saruman, but I just assumed when Sauron saw Pippin he didnt know it wasnt a Baggins he was looking at, just a Hobbit.

[radagastly]

I don't believe Sauron "let" Denethor use the palantir so much as caught him at it. The Palantir was more Denethor's right than Sauron's. Sauron may have had some control over what Denethor saw, but Denethor's right and will gave him more personal control. There is no indication that Denethor contended directly with Sauron through the Palantir, unlike Saruman. The Palantir of Orthanc carried Pippin's perception directly to the mind of Sauron, as if it was long accustomed to going there.