Frodo's change from book to film

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

However–

I don’t know what to say to this, except that– well, no they’re not. I mean unless you know for a fact that Wood himself wrote and directed every scene he was in? (For the record, I do actually think his performance was *part* of the problem.)


This… is another sticking point. Maybe we all need to define what we mean by words like “weak” or “gentle”, and also make it clearer what we're talking about. For you, I gather, the focus is on the presence or absence of "one or two ineffectual swipes at Ringwraiths” the lack of which makes Movie Frodo “gentler” in your eyes, and (you assume) “weak” in other peoples’. Also, you keep saying we’re just prejudiced against Wood’s personal appearance.

And yet, here is the actual list of complaints:

• The “Go home, Sam” scene
• General lack of initiative
• Powerlessness against the Ring
• Deviousness
• Lack of humour
• Whining
• Swooning
• And yes, finally, failure to defy the Ringwraiths at Weathetop and the Ford.

Now, obviously you don’t agree with any of this, and that’s fine. However, if you are indeed “trying to understand” other people’s reactions, I think you need to take more note of what they actually are.

the ''go home Sam'' scene makes him look more aggressive than he was in the book, so thats a bad example if you are saying it makes him look weak.
''general lack of initiative'' wrong again. After escaping Boromir Frodo decides to take the boat and go to Mordor alone without Sam, he also saves Sam from drowning. This shows great courage and initiative. you really need better examples of frodos weakness because I dont get it.
''powerlessness against the Ring'' thats a given, in the book or the films, its part of being a Ring bearer.
''whining'' this is more prejudice based on dislike of Woods performance rather than reality. Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.
''swooning'' more prejudice, any so called 'feminine' behaviour like swooning is immediately ridiculed, like swooning from lack of food or exhaustion is somehow ridiculous.
this list of complaints are a bit flimsy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.

Not as much as I while watching Wood's portrayal.

To me, 'book' Frodo does come across as patiently enduring mental and physical anguish. Film version always seemed to me to have a harassed and fretful air about him, as if to let the viewer know he was just carrying the Ring because he'd been bullied into it. And I just don't see book-Frodo's sense of humor displayed. Wood can't seem to forget about the Ring's terrible burden for an instant, even if Frodo in the book does on occasion.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not as much as I while watching Wood's portrayal.

Film version always seemed to me to have a harassed and fretful air about him, as if to let the viewer know he was just carrying the Ring because he'd been bullied into it. .

erm thats called acting.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

erm thats called acting.

Well, he's not acting like Frodo. And that's what he was paid (handsomely) to do.

[Nerwen]

Can we just remember that this is the sort of topic on which nobody is ultimately "right" or "wrong"? Some people like Movie Frodo; some people don't, and it's unlikely that either side is going to convince the other.

With that in mind-

FerniesApple, my intention in making that list was not to "prove" that you're somehow wrong to prefer the film version of the character- because how can you be? I merely wanted to suggest that, since you *were* choosing to argue against the opposing view, it might be well to acknowledge that there had in fact been more than one point of criticism.

One thing I see confirmed here is that we are indeed defining terms differently. For me, the "go home" scene *is* an example of "weakness" in the sense of poor judgement and petulant self-indulgence. Now, of course you don't agree with this assessment, which, again, I'm perfectly okay with. The point is that we are *not* all making a simple equation of aggression with strength or gentleness with weakness, which is what you seem to assume.

On that note, will you *kindly* refrain from these accusations of "prejudice"? Apart from the fact that it's not even close to being a valid argument, I feel it's really raising the temperature of this discussion. Which, again, is about whether people like or don't like a film character- not exactly a matter of world-shaking importance.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

not exactly a matter of world-shaking importance.

Ya, it's just Frodo for gosh sakes...it's not like we're discussing Gandalf.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Can we just remember that this is the sort of topic on which nobody is ultimately "right" or "wrong"? Some people like Movie Frodo; some people don't, and it's unlikely that either side is going to convince the other.

With that in mind-

FerniesApple, my intention in making that list was not to "prove" that you're somehow wrong to prefer the film version of the character- because how can you be? I merely wanted to suggest that, since you *were* choosing to argue against the opposing view, it might be well to acknowledge that there had in fact been more than one point of criticism.

One thing I see confirmed here is that we are indeed defining terms differently. For me, the "go home" scene *is* an example of "weakness" in the sense of poor judgement and petulant self-indulgence. Now, of course you don't agree with this assessment, which, again, I'm perfectly okay with. The point is that we are *not* all making a simple equation of aggression with strength or gentleness with weakness, which is what you seem to assume.

On that note, will you *kindly* refrain from these accusations of "prejudice"? Apart from the fact that it's not even close to being a valid argument, I feel it's really raising the temperature of this discussion. Which, again, is about whether people like or don't like a film character- not exactly a matter of world-shaking importance.

so basically you are telling me to shut up.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

so basically you are telling me to shut up.

Not shut up, Fernie, but "refrain". There is a decided difference, just as there are decided differences in the book and movie character, as well as the opinions regarding said character and the film alter-ego.

The topic has been discussed here for over a decade, and folks are quite set in their views.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

so basically you are telling me to shut up.

Hey FerniesApple, I'm sure that's not what Nerwen intended. I think that she was just trying to remind you (and the rest of us) that we are discussing movie characters, of which opinions might differ. Also Nerwen might be asking that we read what's actually presented in reply posts, and not to make assumptions.

Anyway, make and defend your arguments, please. I find that having a polite - though sometimes heated, especially if it involves Gandalf - discussion with someone with whom I disagree (as we might be doing here) is where I learn the most.

[Note that if you think that I'm not a movie fan now, you should have read my posts when it first came out! ]

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

so basically you are telling me to shut up.

Where do you get that from? I *emphasised* the fact that I was quite okay with your having, and expressing, a different opinion; I just asked you to stop one specific thing- your repeated accusations of "prejudice", which are both needlessly offensive and a discussion-killer. And again, not actually an argument- besides, at this point I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be "prejudiced" against. Elijah Wood? Swooning? Men? Women? Babies?

(I was, by the way, trying to give you an "out" by stressing that it's all subjective anyway, since it was looking to me as though you were rather floundering.)

Finally, a few posters disagreeing on a specific topic with you are not the "hive-mind" treating you as "persona non grata" for "daring to defend" something. They're just disagreeing with you. People have different points of view; that's life.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

the ''go home Sam'' scene makes him look more aggressive than he was in the book, so thats a bad example if you are saying it makes him look weak.

My issue with that scene is that it makes no sense, but that's for another thread.

''general lack of initiative'' wrong again. After escaping Boromir Frodo decides to take the boat and go to Mordor alone without Sam, he also saves Sam from drowning. This shows great courage and initiative. you really need better examples of frodos weakness because I dont get it.

Okay. You show one example where I think we'd all agree that Frodo took action. What of the other scenes (plural) where he doesn't? You may not agree, but I see more scenes where Frodo's more 'along for the ride' than taking the reins in his own hands.

He did jump on the ferry boat on the way to Bree - forgot that one.

''powerlessness against the Ring'' thats a given, in the book or the films, its part of being a Ring bearer.

Agreed.

''whining'' this is more prejudice based on dislike of Woods performance rather than reality. Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.

Maybe you see it that way. I don't. To me, 'whining' is when the person could take some action (other than vocalizing) that could change his/her state, but doesn't. This action typically would not take much effort. But there is zero effort and much vocalization, and so...whining.

Note that I did not mention a specific actor. Don't care if it's Wood, McKellen or Otto - whining's whining.

''swooning'' more prejudice, any so called 'feminine' behaviour like swooning is immediately ridiculed, like swooning from lack of food or exhaustion is somehow ridiculous.

In the scene I described Frodo swoons/faints/crumbles/folds/wilts/gets a case of the vapours/etc when the light of Sauron's Eye (ugh!) hits him. So, regardless of his physical state, it's the light that pushes him over some threshold.

It just looks seriously silly, as it's slightly slowed down as if it's something interesting and not sad.

this list of complaints are a bit flimsy.

Note that the thinnest lembas has two sides.