Of Wizards and Time-Lords

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I'm actually working on a paper to present at Oxonmoot on this very subject, but I have left it on my external harddrive at home (currently on holiday in Finland).

The Melkur is something I discussed in the paper, but there are lots and lots of parallels, intentional and otherwise. Trying to remember some of them off the top of my head but I may forget some as there were a lot.

One of the main things I focussed on was the Doctor as "Space Gandalf", which is what he calls himself in one of the mini-episodes from series 7. It's a very interesting parallel as they are both wise beyond human capabilities, a little eccentric and silly at times, and possess abilities that seem magical. They also have the whole 'coming-back-from-the-dead' thing. Not just in the Doctor's general ability to regenerate, but one might also make a comparison between Gandalf's restoration and the Doctor receiving a new cycle from the Time Lords on the grounds that his job is not yet done.
A criticism the Doctor receives often from his own people is that he seems oddly interested in the planet Earth and its humans. They regard this as ridiculous, a stupid thing for such a high and mighty Time Lord to be getting involved with. I can see this paralleled in Gandalf's affinity for Hobbits and pipe weed, etc. which Saruman criticises him for.
They act as advisors to their friends, obstencillay there to simply aid and guide people, though they often go beyond this remit. The Time Lords set themselves up as passive, sworn only to watch and never interfere, much like the Valar, but they do occasionally meddle by sending envoys. For the Time Lords this often comes in the form of the Celestial Intervention Agency (CIA), who will in tern snatch the Doctor up for covert missions. They eventually exiled the Doctor to earth as punishment for his meddling, accepting that there was evil in the universe and he had a part to play in combating it. The Valar, similarly, send their envoys in the form of the Istari, rather than interfering directly.

The relationship between Gandalf and Saruman has some mirrors with the Doctor and the Master. The Master was a Time Lord who was once the Doctor's closest friend (some have suggested former lover, brother, or just very close friend, it is left ambiguous). The Master tends to be regarded as slightly cleverer and the Doctor even sometimes asks for his help. They were once friends and then something happened that made them enemies. Now the Master has a mind of metal and a desire for conquest, to be the master of other wills.
He also possesses much better technology than the Doctor. A running joke has always been that the Doctor's rackety old Type-40 TARDIS is a piece of junk compared to the Master's Type-90 (which is usually just the Doctor's TARDIS set painted black ). While the Master relies on his superior apparatus, the Doctor is something of a wanderer, a vagabond, and - in his Second incarnation especially - a cosmic hobo. Much like Gandalf and how he is viewed, the Doctor is the underdog all too often when compared to his rival. The Master, like Saruman, is able to raise armies, build bigger engines of war, and does it all from a more secure seat of power.

Coming back to the Doctor as a wanderer, one who goes from place to place, helping out where he can. This seems very much like Gandalf. He never stops, he never stays, he never waits to be thanked, he just fights the good fight and moves on. He is offered kingships and leadership roles, and never takes them. The Doctor is offered the position of Lord President of the High Council of Time Lords, but runs away from such responsibilities. (Though he is still technically President Elect and will use the title when he needs to). Gandalf could have taken the keys to Orthank, could have taken the rods of the Five Wizards, and the crowns of seven kings, but he choses not to. He is no king and has no desire to be so. He even turns down the power of the Ring itself.

There are other little bits and pieces across the realms of time and space. The First Doctor has a very significant Ring, which is precious to him. The Seventh Doctor was played by Sylvester McCoy, who also played Radagast. And others I am forgetting right now!

[Formendacil]

I am no master of Whovian lore (not even of Trenzalore :-p ), but another parallel in the "Doctor as Space-Gandalf" vein occurs to me: Gandalf, like the doctor, likes to take mortal companions with him. We know from the beginning of The Hobbit that Bilbo is by no means the first Hobbit to go off with Gandalf--and even if Gandalf has a preference for British--I mean, Hobbits--he also has companions now and again from outside that one, oddly-chosen, place--Aragorn being the example that comes to mind.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

The Melkur is something I discussed in the paper, but there are lots and lots of parallels, intentional and otherwise.

A couple of other things came to mind which you may have noticed. Firstly Traken is a very idyllic location in which evil things derive from outside. Such was the nature of Eä also:

the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being that are other than Arda itself. [Morgoth's Ring]

The parallels between "The Keeper of Traken" and Tolkien haven't escaped those producing Doctor Who themselves it would seem. I don't know how people consider the Big Finish audios (like the show itself they are of extremely variable quality) but one good quality Peter Davison instalment from 2007, "Circular Time," cements this link. In episode 3, "Autumn," the Doctor and his companion Nyssa of Traken are holidaying on Earth in what appears to be the late 20th or early 21st century. While the Doctor is playing cricket, Nyssa sets about writing a novel about Traken (note that Nyssa is one of the last Trakenites: the Traken Union was destroyed by the Entropy Wave unleashed by the Master in "Logopolis," the serial following "The Keeper of Traken"). She describes her novel to a young human man, Andrew, who asks her (if I recall correctly) if it is "like The Lord of the Rings." Nyssa, of course, is an alien, and doesn't understand what he means.

That brings up another point: Doctor Who has a long history of using various "humanoid aliens" who are superficially identical to humans. In the Classic Series the Doctor had multiple alien companions of this kind (Romana, Nyssa, Adric and Turlough) in addition to his original companion, his granddaughter Susan. Despite their typically superior scientific knowledge these characters tended to be just as foibled as any 20th Century human. This I think evokes the argument in Professor Tolkien's works that even "higher beings" like Elves and the Ainur have "many degrees of error and failing" for such is the nature of life and existence. Even were we to become like them, we would not escape it.

[Pitchwife]

Thanks for your interesting observations, everybody! Obviously there are way more parallels than I was thinking of (although the Doctor and the Master as Gandalf and Saruman had occurred to me). Got to admit that while I've seen most of Nu Who my knowledge of Classic Who is more than sketchy - I have Beginnings (the first three episodes of William Hartnell) and Revisitations (select episodes of Troughton, Pertwee, Tom Baker and Davison + the 1996 movie) and have of course done some online research, but I was quite unaware of the existence of the Melkur or the Celestial Intervention Agency. Thanks again for enlightening me!

One more thing that has come to my mind beyond the Doctor as "Space Gandalf" concerns the two-part finale of the most recent series (Dark Water / Death in Heaven). It begins with the death of Danny Pink, lover of the 12th Doctor's companion, Clara Oswald - who subsequently, with the Doctor's help, goes on a quest to find Danny in the afterlife (aka the Nethersphere) and, if it can be done in any way, bring him back. Doesn't this sound a lot like Beren and Lúthien? Unlike Lúthien, Clara doesn't die herself, but in her telephone call with Danny's uploaded mind she makes it clear that she'd be willing to, if that's what it takes to be with him. However, both that part of the Lay of Leithian and the Who episodes are also gender-reversed reworkings of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, which would explain the parallels without any direct influence.

(By the way, Hookbill, unless a miracle happens I won't be able to attend Oxonmoot, but I would be very interested in that paper. )

[Lalwendë]

Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?

Interesting thought. I'd say there are elements of both:
-as Morgoth was the "creator" of Orcs (corrupter of Elves/Men), Davros is the "creator" of Daleks (corrupter of Kaleds)
-as Sauron acted to "improve" an existing creature (Orcs into Uruk-hai), Davros acted to "improve" the Kaleds - by making them into a "superior" race
-like both Dark Lords, Davros is more dangerous because of his plans and the forces he can muster at his disposal than he is as a combatant - he is dangerous, and so were Morgoth and Sauron, but personal confrontation was rarely how they operated. That being said, Davros stories tend to involve personal confrontations between Davros and the Doctor. The exception I suppose is Remembrance of the Daleks where they communicate remotely but never actually come into each other's presence
-I'd say in some respects Davros is more like Sauron in that his nihilistic tendencies are outweighed by his power-lust. For instance in Genesis of the Daleks he tells the Doctor that he would willingly commit genocide because it would make him like a god: that seems more Sauron-like than Morgoth-like to me - Morgoth, at least by the end of his character arc, would I think commit genocide out of pure hatred rather than because it made him feel powerful/important. But that might be a stretch.
It's a tough one. I think he evokes elements of both characters. At the same time, however, the crucial difference is that Davros is vulnerable to his own creatures: in Genesis he is attacked by the Daleks, in Destiny they merely want to use him to outwit the Movellans, in Resurrection, Revelation and Remembrance he only controls one Dalek faction, at war with another. There's certainly no comparison in Professor Tolkien's fiction: it would be as if Morgoth or Sauron were threatened by their own Orcs, an absurd idea.

In that respect Davros too might be more like Saruman: both are "genetic engineers" (Saruman developed his own Uruk-hai and his half-orcs) and both are betrayed by servants (the Daleks and Wormtongue respectively).

I've actually seen it argued that Davros is more accurately the Doctor's opposite number than the Master is (in a theory which perceives Davros as the more complex antagonist and the Master as more of a stock "evil twin" character). So in that respect Davros may indeed be more like the Saruman to the Doctor's Gandalf. That being said, the Master's penchant for hypnotism evokes Saruman's Voice. So it's complex.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?

I would go with Melkor as a Davros comparison. Davros saw himself being immortalised through his creations, that the spread of the Dalek empire was analogous to the success of his creation. Much like Melkor's power being dissipated into his servants, and into the earth itself, one could see that as a parallel to being so invested in the spread of the military force and influence that it takes over his life.

Originally Posted by Davros, Genesis of the Daleks

To know that life and death on such a scale was my choice... To know that the tiny pressure of my thumb - enough to break the glass - would end everything... Yes! I would do it! That power would set me up above the gods! AND THROUGH THE DALEKS, I SHALL HAVE THAT POWER!

The whole 'set me up above the gods' seems very Melkor-like. Back in the music, Melkor wished for his own creations and ideas to dominate the theme, he wished to conquer others and replace them with his own.

Sauron might be better seen as the Cybermen. He is the master of other wills, can influence thoughts and twist them to his own devices, removing that which he dismisses as irrelevant. He would create a world under his mind, a single mind controlling all.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

So, for anyone who is interested, I did my talk on this very topic at Oxonmoot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xGU2I2uxGQ

If anyone wants the full transcript just ask and I'll send it to you.

[Pitchwife]

*raises hand* Pretty please?

[Galadriel55]

Instead of working on my final assignments, I've been watching the Fourth Doctor. Thinking I'd extend the pleasure of procrastination, I revisited this thread and found this gem.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?

Basing my answer mostly on the Genesis of the Daleks, I'd say Davros is neither Sauron nor Melkor - perhaps a bit of a Saruman, but to me he seems more like a Boromir who did not succeed (or perhaps try) in resisting the Ring. He bites the bait of power and military victory, thinking that he can use this power to shape armies that would bring down a formidable enemy. He lives with a sense of superiority over others, and looks at strangers with arrogance and a pinch of ethnocentrism. But in the end, he ends up biting more than he can chew - his power runs away from him, he is unable to control it and limit it to his own intentions. He becomes the puppet of his own creation, his own doing. Davros, in that episode, is the picture of Boromir had he taken the Ring.

In the episodes of New Who, this analogy doesn't really fit anymore. I was somewhat confused about who he was and what he did in the Tenth Doctor's episodes, but in The Magician's Apprentice / The Witches Familiar (one of my all-time favourites), he really is more of a Saruman. He has the nominal respect of the Daleks, and they do serve him - and obey him, to an extent - but really he is the one dependent on them, while they would live on perfectly fine without their leader. He wouldn't dare command anything too preposterous because his authority is so shaky, like Saruman did not really have authority over the Ruffians. They pillaged and plundered what they would - with Saruman's name and blessing - but had Saruman told them to actually risk their lives for something, that would have been the end of his rule. And weak and powerless, he rejects help and redemption, and is finally overcome by his own servants whom he had put down for too long - Wormtongue for Saruman and the Sewer Daleks for Davros. Mind you, Davros probably still isn't dead, but definitely foiled by his discarded "children".

Maybe they are the same. Maybe Saruman is indeed a Boromir who took the Ring, and Davros in Genesis is just Saruman when he starts out while in Magician's Apprentice he's the Saruman in the Scouring of the Shire. I suppose Davros is a combination of Saruman's appreciation of lore/science, and the tendency to study things by dissection and remake them his own way, and Boromir's lust for battle glory and the greatness of Gondor.

In unrelated news, I may be needing a new scarf.

[Galadriel55]

With all the talk about Saruman characters, I can't believe this scene has not been discussed yet (searched the thread, didn't come up, but might have missed a small mention).

I was just reading Scouring of the Shire - Formendacil's CbC posts prompted a haphazard reread - and I was reminded forcibly of S3E13 Last of the Time Lords ending (can watch here and here). It just struck me how similar is the role of forgiveness is in both cases - the weaker but wiser character making the whole world-wrecking campaign worthless because he forgives the revenge instead of responding to it. I think both are great examples of the power of forgiveness and non-aggression (hey kids, wanna end bullying? ).

There are a lot more things in common between the two scenes, the forgiveness aspect just struck me first. The angry vengeful petty character destroys the world most beloved by his perceived adversary (in fairly similar ways too if you think about it). Following a massive rebellion the angry character loses power and is condemned to an exile from the world / sphere of influence he formerly had. The suffering populace desires his death and even attempts execution, but is stopped by the wise sad character, who forgives the angry character's destruction and even attempt at his own life, offering understanding, pity, and hope of redemption. However, what no one realized is that the most desperate person around, the one driven to the furthest extremes, is the closest companion and partner of the angry character - and the companion is finally driven too far and unexpectedly kills him. The passing of a great being reduced to petty revenge is a sad event, but only the wise sad character really understands just how much of a loss it is. Now which story did I just describe?