Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Formendacil]

It's uncanonical as Mary Sue, but I always liked the idea that Gil-galad was the son of Fingolfin's son Argon (Arakano)--mentioned only in the Shibboleth texts and said to have died just after the crossing of the Helcaraxe. The reason it worked for me is that it allowed the basic outline of the published Silmarillion to remain intact, an outline I have a nostalgia for simply because I encountered it young.

In such a case, Gil-galad is still associated with the House of Fingolfin. It makes sense that the son of Argon would remain with the Elves of Hithlum, but it also makes sense why he'd be skipped over in the succession by Turgon--like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

I might also like it for the meta-narrative reason that it keeps Gil-galad's genealogy "obscure"--it's not quite the "left unsaid" that Christopher Tolkien ended up wishing he'd followed, but as Argon sits on both the edge of obscurity and the edge of canonicity, it leaves Gil-galad's parentage sufficiently forgettable that it makes sense to me that his father could be forgotten in the published tales, leaving later, mannish, scholars to speculate if he was the son of Fingon or the son of a Finarfinian.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(...) like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).

(...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.

(...) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.'

Solictr

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

And Michael Martinez notes that neither Dior, nor his descendants, ever take the title of Lord of Beleriand or High-King of the Sindar. He is called Thingol's heir, and rules with the authority of expected of the king of Doriath, but is never explicitly given the same titles. Thus, I think we all agree that authority can be inherited through male or female lines, but I think the actual title of High-King is demonstrated only to descend through male-line primogeniture. Saying it might have gone through female lines doesn't really pan out, because it didn't, otherwise Elrond might have become the High-King, as the only male heir of the High-Kings of both the Noldor and Sindar. One can argue he didn't take the High-Kingship because there weren't enough Noldor to use the title, and that argument has merit, but we never see a descendant by female descent taking that title, only wielding reduced or diminished authority usually earned partially by descent, partially by action (Ëarendil, Dior, etc...).

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solicitr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps the Elves weren't as systemic in their inheritance laws as we mortals might deem desirable due to the simple fact that they wouldn't have much expectation of inheriting anything. In their mindset, death had to be something of an aberration.

Perhaps they decided the succession on the basis of an ad hocery, "this seems like a good idea."

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solictr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

Essentially. I just remain unconvinced that the theory you've referenced is an inherently superior interpretation of the extant material. I can't give a reason why it couldn't be true, objectively speaking, but neither does it seem to give me an objective reason as to why my current interpretation is patently incorrect.
Similarly, we could, at this time, not objectively disprove that Noldorin inheritance goes first to brothers before moving on to the next generation, which would prove especially convenient for the "son of Fingon" proponents. We don't have any objective, conclusive evidence to the contrary, but I remain unconvinced that such a conclusion is fact. Which is fine! If there were easy answers, it wouldn't be such a contentious topic, which I think we all agree it is.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men, maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

Interesting. I think, personally, to give him formal authority over the Elves of Middle-earth is probably more an interpretive decision than anything with hard support in the text, but I'd be open to listen to more evidence if you find any.

I know Celeborn remained in Middle-earth for some time, as did the sons of Elrond, who were older than their sister, and as males, would have inherited their own authority from their father rather than submitting to that of the mortal son of their younger sister, King though he be of a vast realm. With lords of such age and authority still around functioning as the continuation of the authority of Elrond and Galadriel (whom, admittedly, ruled with Celeborn, though her power and wisdom were undoubtedly greater), it seems to me that Eldarion probably had more respect and acknowledgment of his status as the most powerful Prince (in the more general sense) in Middle-earth, rather than outright authority.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Galin;700969]
I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

QUOTE]

I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Oh and I agree totally with Kuru regarding Elvish inheritance. Furthermore not all monarchies have strict lines of inheritance in our own world. And in Tolkien's, well on another thread, there was some speculation on Eomer's inheritance given that Theoden's older sisters may well have had children

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'; and I think there are two theories of Elvish (or Noldorin) succession, either of which could explain the known data, but the "eldest male" theory seems to fit all the data better.

A) The succession can pass via the female line in the absence of a son, but not to a female in her own right.

B) The succession passes to the eldest male member of the Royal House

Theory A explains almost everything, including Finrod's title passing to his nephew rather than his sister Galadriel (older than A&A), Turgon's High-Kingship passing to his grandson Earendil not his daughter Idril, Thingol's Heir being his grandson Dior not his daughter Luthien, etc.

However, A comes a cropper under these 3 circumstances:

1. Gil-Galad is Fingon's son
2. Gil-Galad is Finrod's son
3. Gil-galad is Finrod's nephew or great-nephew

In Case 1, Gil-Galad should have become king after the Nirnaeth, not Turgon. In Cases 2 and 3, Elrond as Turgon's great-grandson, distaff or not, would have had a superior claim to any Finarfinian.

And this is why I tend to favor Theory B. It doesn't matter whose son Gil-Galad is; the succession went to the eldest male of the House of Finwe in Middle-earth (not counting the disinherited Feanorians). Had Nargothrond held out longer than Gondolin, Orodreth would have held the title, no matter how briefly, and even if G-G was Fingon's or Finrod's son.

----------------

Of course, externally one can trace how Tolkien created a knot for himself (cf. the matter of female succession in Numenor): it was a given from the time of the Sketch that Turgon succeeded his brother Fingon, and after that it didn't matter because there was no Gil-Galad and for that matter no Second and Third Ages. Since Turgon's family was pretty much set in stone, Gil-Galad like Galadriel had to be shoehorned in somewhere else thanks to the LR.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(about Arwen, "Queen of Elves and Men") I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Hmm, but it's from Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen the supreme being?

I thought that was *Ilúvamme rather

Originally Posted by WCH

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'...

That's what I thought. Wasn't wholly positive though

Anyway thanks for the clarification above, and sorry for my mashing up of your opinions earlier.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth mentioning that the title of High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth passed into abeyance with Gil-Galad's death, probably since there weren't enough Noldor left to constitute a kingdom; Elrond could have claimed it but never did.

However, by marrying a Finarfinian (Celebrian), their children became the senior, in fact only, descendants of Fingolfin, Finarfin and Thingol all three, meaning that Eldarion (whatever title he claimed) was more supremely royal than any previous ruler in the Great Lands.