The Fellowship - doomed to fail - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kuruharan · 02-09-2016, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

If Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas or Gimli, the "heroes" had been there, could any of them have achieved what Gollum, by accident, curse or fate, accomplished? Tolkien's answer appears to be no.

By accident, maybe.

But if Elrond and Cirdan were not willing to push Isildur into the Crack of Doom and save everybody a lot of trouble, it can be presumed that none of the Fellowship would have been willing to do the same thing.

Faramir Jones · 02-11-2016, 08:17 AM

When I first read LotR I had, and still have now, some sympathy for Denethor II's anger at Gandalf and his son for allowing Frodo and Sam go off alone into Mordor.

If you look at it, even though it was clear from what was said at the Council that the only way to destroy the Ring was by sending it to and throwing it into the Crack of Doom, there was no clear plan on how to carry this out. Even after the Company left Rivendell, Gandalf was vague about what was to happen after they got over the Misty Mountains.

For that reason, I agree with what Mithadan and others said that

Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force.

Gandalf was clear that Gollum would have some part to play in dealing with the Ring, which happened. He was able to convince Frodo to let him live, and Frodo to convince Sam and Faramir to do the same.

That said, I can still understand Denethor's anger, although the problem is that he himself didn't have an alternative plan other than to keep the ring safe in Minas Tirith, not using it until things were really desperate...

Inziladun · 02-11-2016, 08:33 AM

Those who knew Gandalf, such as most of the Council attendees, had enough trust in him that they were willing to follow his plan, no matter how vague its ultimate ending might seem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

That said, I can still understand Denethor's anger, although the problem is that he himself didn't have an alternative plan other than to keep the ring safe in Minas Tirith, not using it until things were really desperate...

I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that.

Zigûr · 02-11-2016, 08:48 AM

I'm not sure I trust Denethor's anger. Was he truly angry because the Ring had been sent to where it seemed almost certain that Sauron would recover it, or was he really just angry because this object of power which he seemed to secretly desire ("Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need"), even if he did not consciously realise himself that he desired it, had been put beyond his reach? Gandalf outright says he does not trust him:

Quote:

'Nonetheless I do not trust you,' said Gandalf. 'Had I done so, I could have sent this thing hither to your keeping and spared myself and others much anguish. And now hearing you speak I trust you less, no more than Boromir. Nay, stay your wrath! I do not trust myself in this, and I refused this thing, even as a freely given gift. You are strong and can still in some matters govern yourself, Denethor; yet if you had received this thing, it would have overthrown you. Were it buried beneath the roots of Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away, as the darkness grows'

Gandalf seems to think, and I agree with him, that the best place for the Ring was far away from anyone who could wield it, and in my opinion it was the arrogance of Denethor - who seems to have falsely seen the struggle for the spiritual fate of Middle-earth almost purely in terms of a struggle for geopolitical dominance between himself and Sauron alone - which led him to anger about the Ring being beyond his grasp.

Kuruharan · 02-11-2016, 09:34 AM

An unlikely possibility, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that Gandalf (had he continued with the Fellowship) might have intended to take the Ring and fling it into the Crack of Doom himself?

Faramir Jones · 02-11-2016, 09:40 AM

Inziladun, I was interested in what you had to say here:

I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that.

The answer is very clear: Saruman was a rebel. When he was given the tenancy of Orthanc, still Gondorian territory, by Ruling Steward Beren, Denethor's ancestor and predecessor, it was on the understanding that he would accept his obligations as a tenant. Saruman later rebelled, effectively declaring his independence of Gondor. Why should Denethor, or any of his predecessors, trust Saruman, let alone let him into any of their confidences?

This is even before Gandalf found out, due to his imprisonment, that Saruman was an enemy as well, in league with Sauron.

Inziladun · 02-11-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

The answer is very clear: Saruman was a rebel. When he was given the tenancy of Orthanc, still Gondorian territory, by Ruling Steward Beren, Denethor's ancestor and predecessor, it was on the understanding that he would accept his obligations as a tenant. Saruman later rebelled, effectively declaring his independence of Gondor. Why should Denethor, or any of his predecessors, trust Saruman, let alone let him into any of their confidences?

This is even before Gandalf found out, due to his imprisonment, that Saruman was an enemy as well, in league with Sauron.

Well, it's indicated that Saruman had been well received in Gondor even up to Denethor's time. Denethor himself told Gandalf that Saruman had been searching the archives in Minas Tirith (for records of the Ring).

Faramir Jones · 02-11-2016, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, it's indicated that Saruman had been well received in Gondor even up to Denethor's time. Denethor himself told Gandalf that Saruman had been searching the archives in Minas Tirith (for records of the Ring).

Thanks for that point.

Is it clear whether Saruman's visits stopped in Denethor's time or not?

Faramir Jones · 02-11-2016, 09:55 AM

Zigûr, thanks for the quote from Gandalf to Denethor. I liked how the wizard softened his criticism of the Steward by pointing out that he didn't trust himself with the Ring, even though it was freely offered to him by Frodo.

The problem I have is that how could Gandalf expect Frodo not just to get to the Crack of Doom in the first place, but also to have the will left to then throw the Ring in?

Even if Denethor can be accused of arrogance and a desire for the Ring, such a question from him (even if badly phrased by calling Frodo a 'witless halfling') is still valid.

It's just as well that Gondor isn't a democracy. Can one imagine Gandalf defending his stance at a public meeting?

02-11-2016, 08:17 AM	#2
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Sympathy for Denethor When I first read LotR I had, and still have now, some sympathy for Denethor II's anger at Gandalf and his son for allowing Frodo and Sam go off alone into Mordor. If you look at it, even though it was clear from what was said at the Council that the only way to destroy the Ring was by sending it to and throwing it into the Crack of Doom, there was no clear plan on how to carry this out. Even after the Company left Rivendell, Gandalf was vague about what was to happen after they got over the Misty Mountains. For that reason, I agree with what Mithadan and others said that Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force. Gandalf was clear that Gollum would have some part to play in dealing with the Ring, which happened. He was able to convince Frodo to let him live, and Frodo to convince Sam and Faramir to do the same. That said, I can still understand Denethor's anger, although the problem is that he himself didn't have an alternative plan other than to keep the ring safe in Minas Tirith, not using it until things were really desperate...

02-11-2016, 09:34 AM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	A New (wild) Idea An unlikely possibility, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that Gandalf (had he continued with the Fellowship) might have intended to take the Ring and fling it into the Crack of Doom himself? __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-11-2016, 09:40 AM	#6
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Denethor's mistrust Inziladun, I was interested in what you had to say here: I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that. The answer is very clear: Saruman was a rebel. When he was given the tenancy of Orthanc, still Gondorian territory, by Ruling Steward Beren, Denethor's ancestor and predecessor, it was on the understanding that he would accept his obligations as a tenant. Saruman later rebelled, effectively declaring his independence of Gondor. Why should Denethor, or any of his predecessors, trust Saruman, let alone let him into any of their confidences? This is even before Gandalf found out, due to his imprisonment, that Saruman was an enemy as well, in league with Sauron.

02-11-2016, 09:55 AM	#9
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	The problem I have Zigûr, thanks for the quote from Gandalf to Denethor. I liked how the wizard softened his criticism of the Steward by pointing out that he didn't trust himself with the Ring, even though it was freely offered to him by Frodo. The problem I have is that how could Gandalf expect Frodo not just to get to the Crack of Doom in the first place, but also to have the will left to then throw the Ring in? Even if Denethor can be accused of arrogance and a desire for the Ring, such a question from him (even if badly phrased by calling Frodo a 'witless halfling') is still valid. It's just as well that Gondor isn't a democracy. Can one imagine Gandalf defending his stance at a public meeting?