The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

The answer is very clear: Saruman was a rebel. When he was given the tenancy of Orthanc, still Gondorian territory, by Ruling Steward Beren, Denethor's ancestor and predecessor, it was on the understanding that he would accept his obligations as a tenant. Saruman later rebelled, effectively declaring his independence of Gondor. Why should Denethor, or any of his predecessors, trust Saruman, let alone let him into any of their confidences? This is even before Gandalf found out, due to his imprisonment, that Saruman was an enemy as well, in league with Sauron.

Well, it's indicated that Saruman had been well received in Gondor even up to Denethor's time. Denethor himself told Gandalf that Saruman had been searching the archives in Minas Tirith (for records of the Ring).

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, it's indicated that Saruman had been well received in Gondor even up to Denethor's time. Denethor himself told Gandalf that Saruman had been searching the archives in Minas Tirith (for records of the Ring).

Thanks for that point. Is it clear whether Saruman's visits stopped in Denethor's time or not?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Thanks for that point. Is it clear whether Saruman's visits stopped in Denethor's time or not?

The inference seems to be that the last time Saruman had been to Minas Tirith was when he did his search. Having gotten what he wanted, he had no further use for old Denethor.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for the reply, Inziladun. You're probably right in your inference. But just because Denethor may have allowed Saruman access to the archives in Minas Tirith doesn't mean that he confided in him. He appears to be a man who kept his own counsel, who listened to people, then made his own decisions.

It was clear from LotR that he knew who the 'Thorongil' was who lived and worked in Gondor and Rohan in his younger days. What I found interesting was that Faramir, after meeting Frodo and Sam, said that he concluded, from what Gandalf had looked at in the archives concerning Isildur, that the latter had taken something from Sauron before his departure to the North, although he didn't think that it was the Ring until Sam put his foot in it. My opinion is that his father Denethor had come to the same conclusion.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

But just because Denethor may have allowed Saruman access to the archives in Minas Tirith doesn't mean that he confided in him. He appears to be a man who kept his own counsel, who listened to people, then made his own decisions.

I don't think Denethor ever sought advice from Saruman, but my musing was on why that didn't occur to Denethor as an option, rather than sending his heir on a journey of hundreds of miles, alone, to an unfamiliar location, to see a Half-elf.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

What I found interesting was that Faramir, after meeting Frodo and Sam, said that he concluded, from what Gandalf had looked at in the archives concerning Isildur, that the latter had taken something from Sauron before his departure to the North, although he didn't think that it was the Ring until Sam put his foot in it. My opinion is that his father Denethor had come to the same conclusion.

Denethor was a sharp guy on his own, and I agree he likely put two and two together.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think Denethor ever sought advice from Saruman, but my musing was on why that didn't occur to Denethor as an option, rather than sending his heir on a journey of hundreds of miles, alone, to an unfamiliar location, to see a Half-elf.

We do know, however, that it's extremely likely that Denethor and Saruman encountered each other when using their respective palantíri, as stated in Unfinished Tales: "Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself." Obviously, however, that's not quite the same as them giving counsel to one another...

It might be possible, however, that Denethor knew by that point that Saruman's trustworthiness was compromised. Denethor became steward in 2984, and according to Unfinished Tales "it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power." Saruman started using the Orthanc-stone in approximately 3000. The subsequent seventeen years (before Boromir departed for the North) seem like ample opportunity for Denethor to have encounted Saruman and to have determined that he could no longer be trusted.

To support this, I would point out that Saruman had neither Denethor's advantage for using the stones (legitimate, albeit inherited, authority), nor Sauron's (sheer overwhelming power). Thus it seems like Saruman might be less likely to be able to conceal his intentions from Denethor.

Note that when Gandalf rather incredulously asked Denethor "Is it naught to you that Théoden has fought a great battle and that Isengard is overthrown, and that I have broken the staff of Saruman?" Denethor replied "It is much to me. But I know already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel against the menace of the East." This suggests to me that he might have been keeping an eye on Saruman for some time.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

We do know, however, that it's extremely likely that Denethor and Saruman encountered each other when using their respective palantíri, as stated in Unfinished Tales: "Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself." Obviously, however, that's not quite the same as them giving counsel to one another...

It might be possible, however, that Denethor knew by that point that Saruman's trustworthiness was compromised. Denethor became steward in 2984, and according to Unfinished Tales "it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power." Saruman started using the Orthanc-stone in approximately 3000. The subsequent seventeen years (before Boromir departed for the North) seem like ample opportunity for Denethor to have encounted Saruman and to have determined that he could no longer be trusted.

Saruman's expropriation of Orthanc soon after the last White Council seems like it would have been more than enough to cement him in Denethor's mind as untrustworthy; probably a rival, and possible an usurper. This would have been shortly after the last White Council, and decades before Denethor became Steward.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that.

Perhaps he was looking for weapons against his greatest enemy. His sons' dream said the "Sword that was broken" and councils "Stronger than Morgul-spells" could be found in Imladris, not Angrenost.

You're right though, the whole errand is odd if you think of it from Denethor's point of view. Reluctantly or not, to allow his son, heir, and chief captain to journey into the ruined North, apparently unescorted, with the precise destination unknown, on the basis of a dream? In peace-time it would be strange enough, but immediately after the greatest conceivable enemy has declared war and driven Gondor across the Anduin? Denethor?

It almost seems like something Gandalf would do. )