What Powered The Three? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Zigûr · 04-23-2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not aware of any evidence that Tolkien "disdained" Classical Greek (or Roman) culture or literature. That he was more interested in other traditions (not only Germanic but also Celtic and Finnish), even that he thought those traditions were unfairly neglected in favour of the Classics, does not imply disdain.

I just realised I shouldn't have said "On a more serious note" because I was actually attempting to be facetious. Whoops.

Ivriniel · 04-25-2016, 02:40 AM

@Pitchwife

Yes, I think talk about Ringlore works better with terms such as "The Will of Galadriel was great, and her Fea that of the Line of the blending of the three kindreds of Elves and so, Nenya, Ring of Water was great to wield in her hands"....c.f. 'her fea+Ring threshold of power".....

I think ur technological metaphor though certainly is part of a two-fold method Sauron wielded.

@Belegon

Yes. I think the same. Preservation, and by a kind of unmarring of Middle Earth, or to extend what Celebrimbor must have discerned about Valinor through having, himself, probably seen a Silmaril (or two) in the War of Wrath. Certainly, coming from Feanor's line, who did somehow bring the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils, he must have been inspired in a way like his father was. He also made the Elessar (well, he 'did' in one of two renditions of the mythology). The Elessar was (apparently) generally, the progenitor to the Three in its preservation functions.

@Aiwendil

Hi there Aiwendil. I agree. I'm not sure it was disdain. Rather a move to a deeper or more personal mythology of his own, where he was initially more enamored of the classics.

@Mithadan

Hello Mithadan, great to see you

I suspect you've tapped into something. The same 'process' of the imbuing of Silima with the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils is somehow a clue about Ringlore (at least Ringlore a-la Celebrimor o Eregion). And it has been my understanding that Lore of Artifacts in Middle Earth did require that a maker imbue an item with some of his/her essence. Melian, even in taking Elvish (kind of) 'body' an annexing Doriath imbued her power, with some irreversibility. I haven't looked up a quote, but I recall one. Likewise, Melkor in his various makings.

About Sauron's 'plot' as Annatar.....

@Morthoron

Hey there Mo_rhthoron

great to see you here. Hope you have been well, and what must I write to get a blast (to make my day) hahaha

kind regards....

I absolutely *love* the snippets of the Second Making with the breaking of the Earth by Morgoth after his return through the Doors of Night. And the spilling of the light of the Silmarils on Ezellohar.

Implications are that the light is indeed, as Mithadan states, something about Ea or Arda Unmarred, and linked to Eru in his Music.

Although Vilya is the Ring of Air (Elrond, and excuse my error upstream. I was expecting a Balrog Ski trip on the Ford of Bruinen, but with an (air) dinge hahaha) we have the author implying somehow that the Three had the Elements implicated.

@Zigur

Hello Zigur, great to see you also. Yes, makes sense. I have wondered much the same.

I've been wondering for a long time, if the innate vulnerability was perhaps, more about ....

Ivriniel · 04-25-2016, 02:41 AM

@All

Osanwe

We know from Tolkien's comments (thank you Mithadan for the materials) that Osanwe could be shut off, or denied, by will, and that an Elf could deny a Vala. (at least that's how I read it, in that fear elicits closure to another).

Anyhooz - the relevance.

I've been wondering if the vulnerability was a Ringlore 'Osanwe' perversion that Sauron imbued into the process of Rings, and that the major vulnerability was that Sauron could

DISCERN

An Elf bearing a Ring - ergo - strategic - vulnerability. He could deploy war forces where he knew the Ring keeper hadn't placed defences. Stuff like that. Tolkien cites similar concepts about the Stones and 'who could spy on whom' with the Master Stone being able to discern lesser Stones, without the viewer necessarily knowing.

Recall, he was in WWI and II where he grew up understanding that war outcomes were based on capacity to intercept coded messages during that time of proliferation of encryptions.

Thus - the "will" aspect of his "imbuing" needed to -- exceed that of the 'Osanwe' sort of 'thing' he devised in The Ring spell

Anyone care to comment?

04-25-2016, 02:40 AM	#2
Ivriniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 430	thank u for the replies @Pitchwife Yes, I think talk about Ringlore works better with terms such as "The Will of Galadriel was great, and her Fea that of the Line of the blending of the three kindreds of Elves and so, Nenya, Ring of Water was great to wield in her hands"....c.f. 'her fea+Ring threshold of power"..... I think ur technological metaphor though certainly is part of a two-fold method Sauron wielded. @Belegon Yes. I think the same. Preservation, and by a kind of unmarring of Middle Earth, or to extend what Celebrimbor must have discerned about Valinor through having, himself, probably seen a Silmaril (or two) in the War of Wrath. Certainly, coming from Feanor's line, who did somehow bring the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils, he must have been inspired in a way like his father was. He also made the Elessar (well, he 'did' in one of two renditions of the mythology). The Elessar was (apparently) generally, the progenitor to the Three in its preservation functions. @Aiwendil Hi there Aiwendil. I agree. I'm not sure it was disdain. Rather a move to a deeper or more personal mythology of his own, where he was initially more enamored of the classics. @Mithadan Hello Mithadan, great to see you I suspect you've tapped into something. The same 'process' of the imbuing of Silima with the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils is somehow a clue about Ringlore (at least Ringlore a-la Celebrimor o Eregion). And it has been my understanding that Lore of Artifacts in Middle Earth did require that a maker imbue an item with some of his/her essence. Melian, even in taking Elvish (kind of) 'body' an annexing Doriath imbued her power, with some irreversibility. I haven't looked up a quote, but I recall one. Likewise, Melkor in his various makings. About Sauron's 'plot' as Annatar..... @Morthoron Hey there Mo_rhthoron great to see you here. Hope you have been well, and what must I write to get a blast (to make my day) hahaha kind regards.... I absolutely love the snippets of the Second Making with the breaking of the Earth by Morgoth after his return through the Doors of Night. And the spilling of the light of the Silmarils on Ezellohar. Implications are that the light is indeed, as Mithadan states, something about Ea or Arda Unmarred, and linked to Eru in his Music. Although Vilya is the Ring of Air (Elrond, and excuse my error upstream. I was expecting a Balrog Ski trip on the Ford of Bruinen, but with an (air) dinge hahaha) we have the author implying somehow that the Three had the Elements implicated. @Zigur Hello Zigur, great to see you also. Yes, makes sense. I have wondered much the same. I've been wondering for a long time, if the innate vulnerability was perhaps, more about .... __________________ A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? Last edited by Ivriniel; 04-25-2016 at 02:45 AM.

04-25-2016, 02:41 AM	#3
Ivriniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 430	@All Osanwe We know from Tolkien's comments (thank you Mithadan for the materials) that Osanwe could be shut off, or denied, by will, and that an Elf could deny a Vala. (at least that's how I read it, in that fear elicits closure to another). Anyhooz - the relevance. I've been wondering if the vulnerability was a Ringlore 'Osanwe' perversion that Sauron imbued into the process of Rings, and that the major vulnerability was that Sauron could DISCERN An Elf bearing a Ring - ergo - strategic - vulnerability. He could deploy war forces where he knew the Ring keeper hadn't placed defences. Stuff like that. Tolkien cites similar concepts about the Stones and 'who could spy on whom' with the Master Stone being able to discern lesser Stones, without the viewer necessarily knowing. Recall, he was in WWI and II where he grew up understanding that war outcomes were based on capacity to intercept coded messages during that time of proliferation of encryptions. Thus - the "will" aspect of his "imbuing" needed to -- exceed that of the 'Osanwe' sort of 'thing' he devised in The Ring spell Anyone care to comment? __________________ A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help?