Where do elves get metal?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

There are certainly bridges built by the Noldor. The stone bridge over the Narog built at the behest of Turin in Nargothrond is one.

Of course; more good examples.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The stones of Hollin at least recalled the deep delving of the Noldor.

Indeed. The examples are rarer for the Elves, but they do exist.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Zigûr, I did not know you were writing a dissertation on Tolkien. Congratulations! Where? might you tell us when its defense is scheduled? and may we read it when it is published?

Thank you. Once it is finalised and I have graduated I will certainly mention it on the Downs for any interested parties to read.

I am at the University of Sydney. In the Australian system, the thesis is not examined through a thesis defence or viva; instead a process of examination occurs in which three examiners (typically one internal, two external) read the thesis independently and give individual results. The University then gives a final result based on these. I have already passed this process with only emendations required. I am currently completing those prior to final submission and graduation.

Supposedly this is a result of the geographical isolation of Australia, as it would be difficult to get international scholars to agree to attend oral defences, except perhaps from New Zealand. Technological developments might change that in the future. Nonetheless my two external examiners were both international, one being in New Zealand and the other being in the United Kingdom, as I understand it.

Apologies for this bit of off-topic content. As I say, when the final document is available I will mention it here on the Downs.

[Faramir Jones]

I'm glad to read the good news about your doctorate, Zigûr! I (and I'm sure others) would be interested in any other news about it, including any conclusions you've come to.

[Faramir Jones]

Zigûr, I agree with you about the existence of 'this curiously common assumption that Elves were averse to manual labour'.

It made me think about the similar assumption that Elves were vegetarian, as shown in the first few seconds of this clip from the first of Jackson's adaptations of The Hobbit, An Unexpected Journey, when Bilbo and the dwarves are in Rivendell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovKDk7ZaXSw

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovKDk7ZaXSw

Another one of those "assumption" examples where it seems like Peter Jackson needed to put down the Dungeons & Dragons manual (or perhaps the Warhammer army book) and actually pick up one of Professor Tolkien's stories.

Wouldn't it have been so much more original and refreshing in this film if, instead of going for the pop-culture cliché, they had followed the actual book they were meant to be adapting so that the Dwarves were the stuffy aristocratic ones who took themselves too seriously and the Elves were the light-hearted, humorous merrymakers? I suppose Thorin still takes himself far too seriously in the film.

In any event, one can't help but find it bizarre that Professor Tolkien's imitators have so much influence that it creates mistrust in his own stories, such that people are inclined, despite everything, to see his Elves as work-shy posh weirdoes and his Dwarves as drunken Scotsmen in comedy Viking helmets.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for the reply, Zigûr! While I'm critical of Jackson's adaptations, in terms of his facile joining of elves and vegetarianism I'm saving my annoyance for the people who began that nonsense.

Also, the request for chips can be said to have some support, Sam Gamgee promising Gollum in LotR that if he continued to behave well, he would cook him some fish and chips.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Silvan Elves of course listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They really are metal!"

My dad must be a Silvan Elf then.

Another rather obvious bridge I've missed is the one in The Hobbit itself that leads into Rivendell, one which appears to be of a defensive nature:

There was only a narrow bridge of stone without a parapet, as narrow as a pony could well walk on; and over that they had to go, slow and careful, one by one, each leading his pony by the bridle.

Incidentally, Dr. Rateliff is curious about this note of Professor Tolkien's after the end of the revised Chapter III:

Ch. III should make clear
Elrond's care for roads etc. from
Greyflood to <Mountains>

Dr. Rateliff finds this difficult because he does not consider there to be a precedent for Elves doing the road work and thinks it unlikely that Dwarves would have been hired to do it as "that solution runs afoul of this text's statement that dwarves were not welcome here [in Rivendell] and did not know this part of the world well."

However he seems to extrapolate a tad; the text simply says "This country was not well known to the dwarves" (previously "unknown to the dwarves" but Professor Tolkien himself realised this was inconsistent with the fact that they traded between the Iron Hills and the Blue Mountains by traversing that region, and so changed the statement) and says of Rivendell "few dwarves have ever seen it."

Dr. Rateliff takes this as meaning that "the dwarves were not particularly welcome at Rivendell", describing it as a "new and somewhat disconcerting idea, apparently imported back into The Hobbit to match the initially chilly relations between Gimli's people and the elves of Lórien in The Lord of the Rings." He observes that Professor Tolkien originally drafted "no dwarf has ever seen it" but changed it.

To me there are a few too many assumptions here; the idea that few Dwarves had seen Rivendell does not seem particularly "disconcerting" to me, as it does not seem to me that there would be much reason for the Dwarves to go there, or much reason for Elrond to compromise Imladris' secrecy by revealing its location to anyone except other Elves, the Wise and the Dúnedain. Surely if there was meant to be a parallel with Gimli's treatment in Lórien the Elves in the revised Hobbit would have been far more secretive, but they are not. I always assumed that the Silvan Elves of Lórien were simply a little superstitious. I find it unlikely that the Noldor of Imladris bore such prejudices given their history of collaboration with the Dwarves. I assume there were some Sindar at Rivendell as well, but nonetheless I think Dr. Rateliff is making the situation more complex for himself than is necessary. It could quite simply be that Elven craftsmen ventured forth, in secrecy, and maintained the roads when necessary.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

I must disagree in part. The Silvan Elves started listening to Jethro Tull because of their dealings with the Dwarves, who considered Tull hard rock, of course. Tolkien in a late emendation placed Tull in the metal category, perhaps forgetting about the prior designation. In any case, their defeat of the Sauronian Metallica was eucatastrophic.