Sauron's Great Miscalculation

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

After all, despite how duplicitous the Mouth was being in any event, there was no one present to represent two of the major powers of the North, Erebor and Dale, who would have come under Sauron's 'East of the Anduin' dominion.

A week prior to The Black Gate there was the Battle of Dale where King Dain is slain, and King Brand, with the remaining dwarves and men hold up in Erebor and are besieged. So it's probable Sauron already felt assured Erebor and Dale under his dominion (or was about to be).

And prior to The Council of Elrond, Sauron already sent a messenger to make an offer to the dwarves of Erebor, in exchange for info on a Baggins:

'At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. "As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this," he said: "that you should find this thief," such was his word, "and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours fore ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?"~The Council of Elrond

The dwarves realize the messengers offer from Mordor is full of deception and refuse to help. But it establishes, if Sauron could afford to do it, he would offer some form of "false friendship" instead of spending resources on war and force of arms. When the Western powers show resistance, he uses military force.

[Ivriniel]

The rise of the Shadow while the Ring was severed from the Body of Sauron, implies something I have always wondered about and that has left me with indications of doubt. How did it occur. On what basis was he able to re-corporate and then ADD in *nine* Nazgul to manipulate (who remained enslaved). Presumably they were difficult to control, and with a nett power quotient loss, at the least it makes no sense that he could rise *and* control them.

Then, there's that weirdo thing that happened at the obviously corrupt Counsel of Elrond.

1. Frodo's body was already somewhat 'transparent' after being 'healed'. The Nazgul got part of Frodo's body. The process is irreversible as implied by the invisibility of 'wraithishness' residual.

2. The Nine of course did know about the Ford of Bruinen. Sauron is not stupid. They knew their horses would die. They wanted them to die. They wanted water to flush all touch of the Living from them, so they could Telekinetically, or tele-sentiently, clairsentiently have an Unviolated contact with Sauron. The UNDEAD FLESH to EYE OF SAURON, was, ergo, a triangulation to Frodo's part UNDEAD part ALIVE ruin of hobbit. And Sauron had telepathic links with the Three PRIOR at Orodruin (Agh Burzum Ishi Krimpatul), and had intimate contact with Celebrimbor for hundreds of years. Thus, he was aware of the degree of deranged depravity the Three had tapped into, in their making.

3. Has it occurred to us ever that the idea of "preservation" and the incepting need of the Elves was a vulgarity and as a Vanity of conceit, and violation of Eru's order of Ea in what it had been vested into. To believe as a Peoples that they had the right to Annexe that kind of Power in realms DIVIDED from Middle Earth, with such xenophobic impetus is the Evil of Vanity. Galadriel was the most divisive, as an abomination. Her realm was covetous, separatist and defined by her Ring. Therefore, to so greedily closet her zones of 'preservation' is abomination. Her mirror is a nausea of narcissistic self fulfilling aggrandisation. Looking her own wonder and beauty and expansive vomit.

4. In the Council of Elrond, hasn't anyone wondered how overly eager Frodo was to continue. Greedily enslaved at the unconscious level, I mean seriously, he's just had two weeks of telesentience with The Nine, and there he is rising in seeming candour.

5. The fact that Elrond acquiesced at was a malevolence of conceit, not Sauron's but Elvish in nature. The Noldor all, in Middle Earth were premised on the Kinslaying in a greedy pursuit of their vanity to own a pretty light (the Silmarils). Such rebellion against the Laws of Creation is gerationally transmitted. And Aule links together, Feanor (Noldor), Sauron and creations of Vanity. That's the parable of Aulie, in its undertones where excessive greed, beyond need of a Crafting are involved.

Sauron was atoned of excess Greed by the removal of the Ring from his body and in an atonement that was not 'emotionally felt' but implied by an endpoint--ORODRUIN. So, the Ring at its melting, was an "Unflow incident" of the reuniting of the Body of a Maia with greeds, resolving the nett areas of Sauron's residual malevolent Greeds. He is restored. He went back from 'whence he came' prior to the dividing of his Body from the Body of Ea and he was a master craftsman of Aule. The Shadow Hand at the Morthoron was the warning --DIRE-- to the hosts transliterally, that 'what thou seest, is what though art, and this time, mine hand cometh unto, into and through thee, to manifest resolution of Elvish insanity',

That is, he did GOOD. He got the last of the Elvish perversions in balance of ruinous selfish vanity and Greed to covet 'preserved' areas of enstasised reality. Galadriel has a debt of suffering yet to atone for.

Sauron's body, no doubt recorporates as Spirit of Maia, and penetrates Ea, and no doubt stands by Aule's side. You cannot slay a Maia. And Saruman's warning to Hobbits I would say is same same. Saruman's discorporation in the Shire, was the unconscious self sacrifice and made possible the manifestation of the Mallorn. And a gift of restitution from that vile vomitous conceited Galadriel "unfriends with Feanor forever". That should have warned us to heed. She hated in him that which she was, indeed. We hate what we see in others as a hatred of conceit to deny that trait exists in ourselves. She was no better. Look at her works of Vanity and how they mirror (of Galadriiel) self-ponderance and naval gazing.

As for Celebrimbor. The relationship with Sauron is of his seduction by power. Tolkien does not speak explicitly about whether or not it had sexual overtones, but relationships of POWER ALL have a sexual undertone. More often those manifest as aphrodisiac of the power master. I've no doubt that Sauron knew that much, at the least. And that because Celebrimbor COULD not speak of the latent sexual undertone of a POWER MOTIVE ('yes lord Annatar, I am indeed en-greeded to obey your master teachings LORD OF GIFTS' I shall craft a realm of defiance of the Valar and preserve'). Sauron, I wonder then, must have known that the Rings touched or not, were imbued WITH Sauronic Endeavour and BY proximity to Sauron was Celebrimbor. And Body of Elvendhom of Body of Maia, no doubt, the Rings three Afire with malevolent greeds of desire, NON discerned.

. dot (DOT)

[Ivriniel]

autopoietic (DOT) DOT .

The above are transgenic inferences - that is, there was no indication in the narratives that Elvish persons were immune from the trappings of Greed.

Maeglin is case in point, who was LESS prone to perversion by the Vanity of Conceit to "hide from even himself" THAN Celebrimbor (quote by Tolkien about Sauron after the War of Wrath). This comment I place 'first last' (ie I had it I mind for the big post and it governs context of overview of my prose. Celebrimbor is Noldorin and Feanor's very VAIN grandson. "I CELEBRIMBOR DID WRITE THEM". Doors to Khazad Dum. Really, did you Celebrimbor! Glad you needed to tell us how very GRAND you are, lovely VAIN ELF,

Sauron, after begging for mercy from Eonwe, pleaded in earnest (so he thought but lied even unto himself). Annatar had a new acquired wisdom about this. Entre, Eregion, and Celebrimbor.....Sauron is Coming Back and knew from Eregion that he had

3, THREE (Music of Ainur) TERMS of GOVERNANCE. Count them up. The THIRD (three Rings) manifested closure with the THIRD END of his Body Corporeal (Barad Dur toppling).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elves, immune from greed?

Um, re-read The Silmarillion.

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I've re-read the sections on the Battle of the Pelennor from The Return of the King. Humans seem to have been Saruon's most effective troops in that battle. After the arrival of Aragorn the orcs are not referenced again, but rather the Easterlings and Haradrim are stated to have stayed and fought

I think in very great part that's because the Darkness broke at dawn, and the un-planned sunshine rendered the Orcs largely ineffective. Conversely, it aided Sauron's human troops (in unpublished notes he mentioned that the Darkness adversely affected them just like the Men of the West).

(FWIW, I think that PJ really blew the significance of the change from pitch-black to brilliant sunshine in that moment. But then he blew the 'cockcrow' moment generally, preferring Giant Samurai Trolls.)

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think in very great part that's because the Darkness broke at dawn, and the un-planned sunshine rendered the Orcs largely ineffective. Conversely, it aided Sauron's human troops (in unpublished notes he mentioned that the Darkness adversely affected them just like the Men of the West).

Interesting, I don't recall reading that, or it didn't register.

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

Well, the men of Rhûn and Harad had a history of war with Gondor. Sauron used that old hatred and probably promised them spoil and land, like Morgoth in the First Age.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the men of Rhûn and Harad had a history of war with Gondor. Sauron used that old hatred and probably promised them spoil and land, like Morgoth in the First Age.

He almost certainly had; the reserves thrown into the fray by Gothmog of Morgul are said to have been mustered "for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor".

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

Perhaps they were acclimatised to Orcs, or not so far from Orcs themselves after living so long under the shadow. As for Sauron's tactics, I suspect the Men had little greater understanding than any other ignorant people threatened, manipulated or pressed into power for some distant tyrant. They probably did not realise they were being so poorly used, at least until it was too late.

It's worth noting that Sauron appears to have promoted himself as an angry, vengeful god, and only appeared benevolent even to his followers early on. In the Second Age, for the Men of his empire "Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire." The Drowning of Anadûnê also states that "well-seeming he was at first, and just, and his rule was of benefit to all men in the needs of body. For he made them rich, whoso would serve him; but those who would not he drove out into the waste places." Thus I suspect the actions of the Men of Darkness were driven by religious terror as well as greed for the spoils of Gondor.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Interesting, I don't recall reading that, or it didn't register.

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

I've often pondered that as well. We know that the Mouth of Sauron spoke of Tribute and spared from death by tithing wealth and annexing lands to Sauron. So, I see an 'appeal to survival' in a vanity of conceit of Overlord as one motivation.

But more to the point, about Sauronic Will, and one point on what we are told by Tolkien about Men being more easily swayed by Melkor/Morgoth/Shadow than the Firstborn.

Seems to be a parable about the promises of greed, coveting, seduction and power, but, by the time you are face to face with Sauron, and 'it's too late to look back', then fear and horror are implied in 'bad decision'.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Seems to be a parable about the promises of greed, coveting, seduction and power, but, by the time you are face to face with Sauron, and 'it's too late to look back', then fear and horror are implied in 'bad decision'.

Can't disagree with you there.