Galadriel and Celeborn

[Findegil]

After I had posted this I observed that my conclusion was maybe a bit thin, because such a list as you created was missing. And I found that I should have given the impulse for the research, with the reference to the therad in the book forum which I will edit into the original posting.

But whatsoever my list is abit different from your even to the time of the end of the First Age, where as you observed the really murky stuff starts. The reason for the differences seems to be that I consider the sources not as entities that are either valid or not but as 'adding info to the overall picture' even if parts of it are contradiced by sources of higher priority. Therefore I think that at least parts of D should be used. With that I get:

- Galadriel is born in Tirion
- Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol
- Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them
- Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë and builds a ship of her own. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started.
- Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes
- Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven
- leads the Noldor across the ice
- Mereth Aderthad
- She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian
- Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries
- visits Nargothrond
- journeys over the mountains without Celeborn
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath
- Galadriel follows the sumons of Eönwë and returns to Beleriand (most proable place of abbiding are the Havens of Sirion where we would suppose Celeborn could be meet again.
- accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partily because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth
- crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they becomes Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador.

I think that the Lordship of Celeborn in Lindon South of Lûhn was later in Second Age after the Fall of Eregion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would greatly disagree with the addition of the boatbuilding, as this is entirely stemming from a rejected and impossible story idea. The rest looks good, but I noticed a contradiction. In Of the Naugrim and the Edain it is said:

At this time> it is said that they climbed {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and looked eastward in wonder, for the lands of Middle-earth seemed wild and wide; but none ever passed over the mountains while Angband lasted.

This must either be emended, or taken into consideration in this discussion as a point of contention.

[Findegil]

The boat building is impossible because? Would disagree means you disagree, I supose. I support it, so we have to discuss it out. That Galadriel wished to explore her own abilities in Middle-earth and lusted to build their a power of her own is atested in other sources. The logical means to come to Middle-earth would be the ships of the Teleri. Galadriel was the granddaughter of Olwë. Why then shouldn't she not go to Aqualondë and try her tallents on boat building, even without Celeborn being there to be meet.

For me the quote you provided refers to the poeple of Caranthir not to all the Noldor. Therefore I am inclined to think there is no issue. But I am ambivalent about this. If you find we have to change it, we can change it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I suppose there is no reason she would not have built a boat. Thus, i will concede it.

You are right, the passage does seem to refer solely to the people of Caranthir.

What more remains to be decided before a draft of the Flight of the Noldor is possible?

[Findegil]

I am actually working on the draft. It will still take a bit of time, since I have to formulat my comments on the changes I introduced (years ago). But I can give a release info: The boat is out of the plot. Working in the text I found that the boat was probabaly not built by Galadriel or with Galadriels help, because it is name 'Celeborn's boat'. Therefore I agree to remove it togehter with Celeborn.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Awesome! When you're done with the draft and we review it, i will do one for the Siege of Angband chapter. Then all of the first age will be a wip!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

- journeys over the mountains without Celeborn
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath
- Galadriel follows the sumons of Eönwë and returns to Beleriand (most proable place of abbiding are the Havens of Sirion where we would suppose Celeborn could be meet again.

I realize the guidelines are specific in this forum, but for me it seems simpler for Galadriel to stay with Celeborn in whatever's left of Beleriand, receive her ban, then cross the mountains of Ered Lindon at some point.

The mountains as noted in The Lord of the Rings are never named there of course, and are already arguably confusing: the Company had just crossed, albeit "under", a very notable mountain range (quite notable to the Lindar on the Great Journey too) to "get to" Galadriel...

... but she doesn't mean these mountains?

Okay she might have gone round, or be generally referring to both Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains, but if it's arguably vague, why not the Ered Wethrin in Beleriand? And it appears that this "ghost" statement might have begun in reference to the Mountains of Valinor (Christopher Tolkien's commentary), granted with different wording, but why not mentally change the range yet again to fit the later idea of Celeborn the Sinda of Doriath?

Two objections I've thought about (and have run into on line):

1) What's so notable about Galadriel's crossing of the Ered Wethrin (to get mention here)?

2) Ere the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin... when (if we imagine the Ered Wethrin), it's also ere the founding!


My answers are (in reverse order)

The falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin didn't happen on the same date. Galadriel's reference is arguably a general one to evoke "long long ago" especially to the ears and mind of the four Hobbits. If I said (something like) "these people came to England before the Fall of Rome" I could simply be generalizing by using a well known event of the deep past. It merely suggests "they arrived a long time ago" for the minds of folks who are not history buffs and don't care when Rome was founded. They get the idea.

As for the notability objection: Galadriel need not have passed over the Mountains of Aman, and it seems to me that there was a pass into the Echoing Mountains as well -- the Noldor took it, and a massing of orcs appear to travel fairly far to take it -- but it's not very convenient considering where Galadriel ended up, if one is then going to the feast and on to Doriath.

In other words, crossing Ered Wethrin could have been Galadriel's first experience with crossing high mountains.

I know it's not what Tolkien meant

But I really only "know" this to some measure of certainty due to posthumously published texts and commentary. In any case none of this need be explained in your version of Quenta Silmarillion. It's just a possible mental way (if one feels it "works" well enough) to keep Galadriel in Beleriand with her husband, and not have to return from Eriador to find out...

... she's been banned! Obviously it's up to you folks. I'm not sure my blather about this appears in the linked thread, if maybe in other threads at Barrow Downs. In any case I had some free time to annoy this thread with it too!



Also, in my experience I've run into the question, despite what is said in RGEO: why does Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings say she passes the test and will go West, as if she already knows her ban has been lifted before she sings her lament? Some take this to challenge the "truth" of the ban, and one person I chatted with even went so far as to say RGEO represents external author commentary and invoked the "death of author" principle to essentially "erase" the ban as Tolkien's own personal interpretation of his world.

For the record I found no evidence that RGEO is written as external commentary (Tolkien as author), rather than the internal guise of the translator used elsewhere, and I take the directness of RGEO to be true, over Galadriel's possible implication in the story in Fellowship of the Ring. Here I'm just noting, some disagree.

For myself, so far, I just mentally imagine Galadriel to be leaving out "if allowed"... in other words, she passed the test and she'll return West (if allowed), but she doesn't want to confuse folks about her ban at this point.

Or something

[ArcusCalion]

In many ways, I would actually agree with Galin. The mountains to which she refers are extremely vague, but to me the more I look at the phrase, the more it feels like the essence of the meaning is that she crossed into the Outer World; i.e. Left Aman. As she did not really "cross the Pelori" this seems odd, until one remembers that the primary act of the Hiding of Valinor was the raising of the Pelori to great heights, and tolkien calls this their last act of truly demiurgic labor. Thus the Pelori are the divide between the Blessed Realm and the Outer World, and Galadriel seems to be using them as a way to say that she came to Beleriand. Now, she does not specify the mountains, and so the reader may interpret them as the Pelori, the Ered Wethrin, or even the Ered Lomin, but the fact remains that all of these could indeed qualify for the mountains in the passage.

As for the "before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" I agree with Galin. This phrase simply is used to denote "long long ago," as it is used also in Gimli's Durin song to denote the same. He is describing the awakening of Durin and says before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, even though they would not be founded for ages of the world. Thus, Findegil's objection to the Ered Wethrin does not really hold.

Regardless, we have progressed enough in our agreement that the needed drafts may be done, but going forward this will become immensely important.

[Findegil]

Hello Galin, nice to read you again here in this quiet corner of teh Downs!

If we go back to the time when JRR Tolkien wrote that sentence in source C, then it is quiet clearly a reference either to Ered Luin or to the Hitheaglir. At that time Celeborn was a Lord of the Silvian Elves in Lorien and Galadriel does recount her coming into his land. And I totaly agree with Galin that the Hitheaglir is most probably meant since these mountains the fellowship has expierenced just a view days before.

But now Celeborn had become a Sindar and did had dwelt all that time since 'the days of dawn' in Lorien. Therefore we have reinterpret the statement.

First the time statement: I don't by your argument that this is just unspecific statement of long ago. It would be extremly strange to refer to Celeborn dwelling in the west by 'since the day of dawn' and then to her own movement by 'ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin' if it would make no difference. And if she meant the Pelorí it would make no difference since she 'crossed' these mountians (if crossing we can named it at all) before the days of dawn. So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'. One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.

Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?

In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

Hi Findegil. Yes I couldn't resist. I've spent hours and hours on this tangle of history.

I don't mean that Galadriel's statement is wholly unspecific. It's quite general yet gives at least a "time line in the sand" so to speak. If I say "before the Fall of Rome" folks will probably think "thousands of years ago" but they will also, I would guess, differentiate even this from the "dawn of history" for example.

Originally Posted by Findegil

(...) So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'.

Celeborn "is accounted the wisest of the Elves in Middle-earth" (agree or not) he has "dwelt in the West since the days of dawn" (very very long time) "and I [Galadriel of course] have dwelt with him years uncounted" [then she gives yet another general time detail, but one that is at least more "markable" in the imagination] "for ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" [still thousands of years past, but a point of general reference for the Company, including Hobbits] "I passed over the mountains and together through ages of the world..."

One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.

For myself I reject the Ered Lomin as there appears to be a pass taken by the Noldor and those dratted orcs who chose the same way; or in any case, the history does not describe any difficult mountain passage here. This could be due to brevity, but taken along with this path being worth finding for the orcs, who had come a long way round to follow the Noldor, to me this suggests at least something less that the "usual" difficulty of crossing high mountains.

Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?

Tue enough. I can't recall nowadays for sure, but I'm guessing that for my first read at least, I supposed she meant the Misty Mountains.

But ach, text D. I wouldn't employ this late variation as it's notably at odds with Galadriel's author published history (and Tolkien's memory seems certainly questionable here).

I understand however that you take a different view and draw what you can into a fuller tale. No problem of course.

This means I'm sure not to agree with your Second Age history here, as I think Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is a problematic text.

I'll try to resist then... I'll try

For instance I believe that the making of Celebrimbor into a Feanorean and Lord of Eregion, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (and certain statements from Words, Phrases, And Passages), knocks out the notion of Galadriel and Celeborn supposedly founding Eregion and so on (other problems I have with this text)...

... but see... I'm already going there

In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.

True.

In any case I appreciate the feedback on my "mountain idea" in an attempt to deal with this line in Fellowship of the Ring, even if I still haven't convinced you... or anyone.

[ArcusCalion]

Looking throughout the Silmarillion (1977), there are two places where CT added in editorial additions to clarify the role of Celeborn in the story. As it is, our current drafts of the First Age have no mention of him at all, and, as CT thought, this seems to me to be a mistake. Should we take up the two mentions of Celeborn into the Silmarillion? (One is in the Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin chapter, while the other is in the Of the Ruin of Doriath Chapter.) The first merely describes the love of Galadriel and Celeborn, and the second clarifies that Nimloth wife of Dior is his kinswoman. I would argue we could even expand these with information from the UT geneology or account, but this must be examined.

[ArcusCalion]

This quote from LQ in Of Beleriand and its Realms makes it seem more unlikely that Galadriel crossed the mountains...

and beyond Duin Daer the Noldor seldom came, nor ever east of Ered Lindon while their realm lasted.

Of course, we could say the Galadriel and Celeborn notes are later, but in this case we must change this passage.