Galadriel and Celeborn

[Findegil]

Hello Galin, nice to read you again here in this quiet corner of teh Downs!

If we go back to the time when JRR Tolkien wrote that sentence in source C, then it is quiet clearly a reference either to Ered Luin or to the Hitheaglir. At that time Celeborn was a Lord of the Silvian Elves in Lorien and Galadriel does recount her coming into his land. And I totaly agree with Galin that the Hitheaglir is most probably meant since these mountains the fellowship has expierenced just a view days before.

But now Celeborn had become a Sindar and did had dwelt all that time since 'the days of dawn' in Lorien. Therefore we have reinterpret the statement.

First the time statement: I don't by your argument that this is just unspecific statement of long ago. It would be extremly strange to refer to Celeborn dwelling in the west by 'since the day of dawn' and then to her own movement by 'ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin' if it would make no difference. And if she meant the Pelorí it would make no difference since she 'crossed' these mountians (if crossing we can named it at all) before the days of dawn. So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'. One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.

Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?

In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

Hi Findegil. Yes I couldn't resist. I've spent hours and hours on this tangle of history.

I don't mean that Galadriel's statement is wholly unspecific. It's quite general yet gives at least a "time line in the sand" so to speak. If I say "before the Fall of Rome" folks will probably think "thousands of years ago" but they will also, I would guess, differentiate even this from the "dawn of history" for example.

Originally Posted by Findegil

(...) So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'.

Celeborn "is accounted the wisest of the Elves in Middle-earth" (agree or not) he has "dwelt in the West since the days of dawn" (very very long time) "and I [Galadriel of course] have dwelt with him years uncounted" [then she gives yet another general time detail, but one that is at least more "markable" in the imagination] "for ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" [still thousands of years past, but a point of general reference for the Company, including Hobbits] "I passed over the mountains and together through ages of the world..."

One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.

For myself I reject the Ered Lomin as there appears to be a pass taken by the Noldor and those dratted orcs who chose the same way; or in any case, the history does not describe any difficult mountain passage here. This could be due to brevity, but taken along with this path being worth finding for the orcs, who had come a long way round to follow the Noldor, to me this suggests at least something less that the "usual" difficulty of crossing high mountains.

Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?

Tue enough. I can't recall nowadays for sure, but I'm guessing that for my first read at least, I supposed she meant the Misty Mountains.

But ach, text D. I wouldn't employ this late variation as it's notably at odds with Galadriel's author published history (and Tolkien's memory seems certainly questionable here).

I understand however that you take a different view and draw what you can into a fuller tale. No problem of course.

This means I'm sure not to agree with your Second Age history here, as I think Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is a problematic text.

I'll try to resist then... I'll try

For instance I believe that the making of Celebrimbor into a Feanorean and Lord of Eregion, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (and certain statements from Words, Phrases, And Passages), knocks out the notion of Galadriel and Celeborn supposedly founding Eregion and so on (other problems I have with this text)...

... but see... I'm already going there

In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.

True.

In any case I appreciate the feedback on my "mountain idea" in an attempt to deal with this line in Fellowship of the Ring, even if I still haven't convinced you... or anyone.

[ArcusCalion]

Looking throughout the Silmarillion (1977), there are two places where CT added in editorial additions to clarify the role of Celeborn in the story. As it is, our current drafts of the First Age have no mention of him at all, and, as CT thought, this seems to me to be a mistake. Should we take up the two mentions of Celeborn into the Silmarillion? (One is in the Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin chapter, while the other is in the Of the Ruin of Doriath Chapter.) The first merely describes the love of Galadriel and Celeborn, and the second clarifies that Nimloth wife of Dior is his kinswoman. I would argue we could even expand these with information from the UT geneology or account, but this must be examined.

[ArcusCalion]

This quote from LQ in Of Beleriand and its Realms makes it seem more unlikely that Galadriel crossed the mountains...

and beyond Duin Daer the Noldor seldom came, nor ever east of Ered Lindon while their realm lasted.

Of course, we could say the Galadriel and Celeborn notes are later, but in this case we must change this passage.

[Findegil]

Galadriel sentence in LotR is for sure of higher priorty. I would even go so far as to change this sentence from LQ to do not force any interpretation of the LotR sentence if we would have taken it up in to our text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

How about:

and beyond Duin Daer <editorial movement and east of the Ered Lindon> the Noldor seldom came{, nor ever east of Ered Lindon} while their realm lasted.

[Findegil]

About the proposed additions to the first age texts:
- The Noldor east of Ered Lindon: For this we settled on a different edited version in the thread about ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’

- Celeborn in ‘Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin’:
Yes I think we should include this, so we might better use the original source texts for the edit:

... Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (NG-EX-04.7{Nibinnogs}[Noegyth Nibin]), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them NG-EX-04.8{ - hence Mîm's special hatred for the Elves -} especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
>Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt NG-EX-04.9{never}[not] in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.> NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol> NG-EX-04.95<Shiboleth , whom she wedded later in Beleriand.> NG-EX-04.97<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn Elmo{ – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he} was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was {"}beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.{" (}Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë.
> NG-EX-05 <LQ2 Now Turgon remembered rather the City set upon a Hill, Tirion the fair with its Tower and Tree, and he found not what he sought, and returned to {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and sat at peace in Vinyamar by the shore. …

- Celeborn as kinsmen of Nimloth: This is already include under the editorial maker RD-EX-66

- Celeborn escaping the sack of Doriath: I think this we should tell in retrospective, as we do with the story of Galadriel leaving Beleriand before the end of the First Age.

Respectfully
Findegil