Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[ArcusCalion]

Therein lies the key. There's money, boys! Yee Haw!

*Sigh* I just can't separate the motives from the actual product. I had the same issue with PJ's movies when I first learned of their coming, When profit is the objective in adaptations of existing works, changes are going to be allowed based on the bottom line, and fidelity to the spirit of the original goes right out the (round) window. They can bloody well keep it.

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

[Kuruharan]

It is a fearsome struggle to constrain myself to socially acceptable vocabulary to describe my reaction to this news.

There is no reason for somebody who respects Tolkien's work to be optimistic about the end product.

Jeff Bezos being a "fan" of the fantasy genre could mean almost anything...in fact, I feel worse about it because you get some crazy ideas being a "fan" of something.

That the focus of this project is going to be the vaporous netherworld of "before the Fellowship of the Ring" is just a blanket statement from the beginning that they intend to pull whatever they feel like pulling out of their hindquarters.

At least they are kind of honest about it.

Perhaps they will at least have enough of a sense of humor to rename Butterbur to Butterfinger.

EDIT: I figured out the best way to phrase my dismay, to wit: "I have a bad feeling that this TV series is going to make The Hobbit films look tasteful and well-crafted by comparison."

[Zigûr]

So, after all, it is just a "glorified fan fiction" show, expanding little bits and pieces of narrative, not really an adaptation?

That destroys what little interest I had. All this will serve to do is perpetuate the cloying atmosphere of misunderstanding and misinformation surrounding Professor Tolkien's work - this one man's lifelong labour of love - in the public consciousness.

Of course, it's not being made for people like me. I'm sure it will please a certain kind of audience, however.

[Nerwen]

Ah, so it's not meant to be an adaptation of "The Lord of the Rings" itself, but rather some sort of "Before the Fellowship" exploration of the characters' backstories, as detailed in the elusive Appendix X? And it's going to be the *most expensive series ever made?*

Sounds like fun...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/11/lord-of-the-rings-tv-series-amazon-prequel

Still, all the younger wizards and elves of Middle Earth can’t guarantee that this Lord of the Rings TV series will be the next Game of Thrones. For one thing, the HBO series started as a very faithful adaptation with a built-in audience of loyal book fans.

See? It's not that difficult to understand what fans want in a book-based series.

And considering that GOT book fans forgave the show quite a few deviations given that it captures the essence, the same could be applied to other fandoms as well.



The other thing about "the new GOT" is that it threatens to turn into this: a competition between Tolkien's characters and GRRM's works over who is more badass, which is not a comparison that will yield anything productive.

Oh my god... this is the hybrid. Foreseen by the prophecy which speaks of a hybrid of two warrior fandoms, which threatens the existence of the universe. The hybrid risks stopping time itself! Watch for some doctor involved in the affair.
(Cheers to all the Whovians more patiently awaiting the Christmas special)

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And considering that GOT book fans forgave the show quite a few deviations given that it captures the essence, the same could be applied to other fandoms as well.

That's far from true in all corners of the fandom. There are places where there is frenzied rending of garments and gnashing of teeth at the changes...aggravated by the fact that the show is now at the point where we don't know what is a deviation and what isn't.

At least we didn't have to deal with that.

[davem]

Still convinced this will be a Sil adaptation. The Tolkien Estate don't own the film rights to LotR or The Hobbit, so they can't be involved in the sale of them to Amazon. It's Middle-earth related, so it's not Smith, or Niggle. And if Amazon have paid $200mil for the rights, its something significant. As to my feelings-well, it would be potentially amazing to see Feanor and the rebellion, the great wars, the Fall of Gondolin... but not if they're going for a GoT vibe.
That said, given that I avoid Amazon on principle, and will continue to do so until they sort out their business practices, its all a bit academic for me.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

I understand that money clouds judgement when people are making the call as to what to add, embellish, or cut from original works when adapting them to bigger, "better" media. If that's your thing, run with it. No drama.

[Lalaith]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

Allow me to present to you a little project called the Silmarillion, that had no purpose beyond the intellectual and emotional pleasure it gave its creator...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Allow me to present to you a little project called the Silmarillion, that had no purpose beyond the intellectual and emotional pleasure it gave its creator...

Lalaith, I believe ArcusCalion is from that cynical lot who believe every artistic endeavor primarily revolves around the making of money, no matter what altruistic intent mentioned by the artist.

In fact, I am sure his opinion coincides with the 18th century poet Matthew Greene, who once famously wrote, "Novels are receipts to make a whore."

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Lalaith, I believe ArcusCalion is from that cynical lot who believe every artistic endeavor primarily revolves around the making of money, no matter what altruistic intent mentioned by the artist.

You don't have to be cynical to recognize that artists need to pay rents and grocery bills like the rest of us. Tolkien was free to build his languages and legendarium for love and his own enjoyment because his day job fed the family (on top of providing him with linguistic and literary inspiration).

Screenwriters, directors and actors, however, live by their craft and generally don't own the means of production (again, like the rest of us). Small, cheap indy projects may be realized without compromising your artistic vision, but if your vision calls for a large cast and lots of special fx you depend on the goodwill of those who do own the means of production, and for whom the maximization of profit is indeed often the sole concern--and there goes:

With usura hath no man a house of good stone
each block cut smooth and well fitting
that delight might cover their face,

with usura

hath no man a painted paradise on his church wall
harpes et luthes
or where virgin receiveth message
and halo projects from incision,

with usura

seeth no man Gonzaga his heirs and his concubines
no picture is made to endure nor to live with
but it is made to sell and sell quickly

For a small budget, minimalist TV version of LotR that trusts the story to do its job without any need for spectacular CGI, artificial character arcs and silly romance subplots, see Hobitit (which I love, it captures the spirit and 'feel' of the story very well IMO, some ham acting and questionable design decisions notwithstanding). But if a big, flashy Tolkien-based series must needs be made, I wish somebody would pick up Helge Fauskanger's ideas for Westernesse (even if Gary Oldman is already a little old to play Ar-Pharazon).

[Michael Murry]

I really have to wonder about how much of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit" (books and films) can remain in certain private hands, for their commercial exploitation only. So many millions of people, over such a long period of time, have read and/or seen this material, that it already seems part of the general world culture. For example: in the bestselling book, The Martian, by Andy Weir -- and in its subsequent film adaptation -- a hero astronaut finds himself marooned on the planet Mars, while a group of NASA employees has a meeting to discuss a controversial plan to rescue him. The book depicts the scene as follows:

What the f*** is 'Project Elrond'?" Annie asked.
"I had to make something up," Venkat said.
"So you come up with 'Elrond'?" Annie pressed.
"Because it's a secret meeting?" Mitch guessed. "The e-mail said I couldn't even tell my assistant."
"I'll explain everything once Teddy arrives," Venkat said.
"Why does 'Elrond' mean 'secret meeting'?" Annie asked.
"Are we going to make a momentous decision?" Bruce Ng aksed.
"Exactly," Venkat said.
"How did you know that?" Annie asked, getting annoyed.
"Elrond," Bruce said. "The Council of Elrond. From Lord of the Rings. It's the meeting where they decide to destroy the One Ring."
"Jesus," Annie said. "None of you got laid in high school, did you?"

The movie scene has a bit more unspoken resonance because Sean Bean, the actor who portrayed the “Mitch” character (a NASA flight director) also played Boromir, an attendee at the film version of the Council of Elrond, from Book II of LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring. Additionally, in the movie but not the book, the character Teddy (Director of NASA) adds: “If we're going to call something 'Project Elrond,' I'd like my code name to be 'Glorfindel',” which would indicate that the character had read the books since the elf character Glorfindel never appeared in Peter Jackson's film version of The Fellowship. Of course, the movie version had to clean up the language somewhat, with the first and last lines of dialogue changed to "What the hell is 'Project Elrond'?" and "I hate every one of you," respectively.

I find it hard to believe that the publishers and producers of The Martian - book and film -- would have had to pay royalties or other forms of "compensation" to the Tolkien Estate or various film studios for making reference to "The Council of Elrond" in their own work. I checked inside the front and back covers of the book for CYA disclaimers and found only the standard generic one:

"This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, and incidents either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, events, or locales is entirely coincidental."

I wonder how far the producers of the projected television series can stretch this "fictitious" and "entirely coincidental" kind of legalistic denial.

[Michael Murry]

Thanks for the verse, Pitchwife. And thanks, again, for that comment (#3) you made many years ago in the "Itaril" thread where you wrote:

A quick google search of "Itaril hobbit", however, revealed this:

Originally Posted by http://collider.com/casting-info-for...revealed/13531

[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.

So it seems like PJ & Co. nicked the name for some token female Elf who wasn't in the book either, but whose presence is presumed necessary in order to feed the unwashed movie-watching masses' hunger for on-screen romance. I'm afraid it takes no extraordinary sagacity to guess who the "young Elf lord" she falls in love with is going to be... *shudder*

I hold you blameless for inspiring my own attempts (often sordid) to follow -- in verse -- the implications inherent in this casting advertisement. Despite the later euphemistic change of product description to "Tauriel," and the change of "love" interest from Elf lord to dwarf miner, the essential "strong female" Mary Sue nature of the elf-chick role remained from first to last. Recently, I went back and gathered all my verse compositions from that thread together -- along with some of the forum commentary, positive and negative, that prompted my poor poetic efforts -- with a view to publishing them someday as a connected cycle. With the promised (i.e., "threatened") television series and spin-offs coming soon, though, I thought it best to wrap up this "Hobbit" elf-chick thing before moving on to whatever awful idea comes next. I think that I tried this once before in another thread, but I've forgotten where I put it. So, with a few changes, I'll try again with:

Unrequited Elf-Dwarf Libido

How did this interspecies film romance
Have anything amounting to a chance
If he, the dwarf, had nothing in his shorts
And she, the elf, knew only glib retorts?

We know that elves and men can mate, it's true,
Because Professor Tolkien said they do.
But how do elves and dwarves refute the rule
That horses crossed with donkeys make a mule?

It seems this kind of, tawdry, tame affair
Appeals to those without a pubic hair:
To boys in bed, both hands beneath the sheets,
And girls who've yet to grow a pair of teats.

And what of that “young Elf Lord” -- You-Know-Him --
Whose face emotes expressions fell and grim
Who left the elf-chick in his dad's employ
To go in search of one ten-year-old boy*

What does a jilted elf-chick have to do?
Abandoned by a dwarf and elf lord, too.
It looks like time for yet another plan.
Who's left to further her career? A man?

Michael Murry, "The Misfortune Teller," Copyright 2017

Note * According to Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn, born in 2931 of the Third Age, would have only reached the age of ten or eleven by 2942, the year that The Hobbit ends with Bilbo's return from his great adventure to Bag End, Hobbiton.

I note this because, very near the end of the last Hobbit film, i.e., The Battle of the Five Armies, the "young Elf Lord" Legolas bluntly tells his dad, King Thranduil: "I can't to back." When the Silvan Elf King solemnly asks his son: "Where will you go?" Legolas answers: "I do not know." The Elf King then advises his son: "Go north. Find the Dunedain. There is a young ranger among them. You should meet him. His father, Arathorn, was a good man. His son might grow to be a great one." Legolas then asks the obvious: "What is his name?" To which the King answers, cryptically: "He is known in the wild as 'Strider.' His true name you must discover for yourself."

Unfortunately for Legolas in 2942, Lord Elrond in Imladris (Rivendell) reveals to 'Estel' his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil and other heirlooms, only in 2951, when Aragorn turns twenty.

Therefore, in 2942 when Thranduil attempts to advise his son Legolas where to go: (1) No one but Elrond and Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, know Aragorn's true name or his ancestry. Aragorn himself answers to the name of "Estel." (2) Aragorn lives in Imladris under his pseudonym and not with the Dunedian in the north whose existence he probably doesn't even know about. (3) At the age of ten or eleven his legs have not grown long enough for him to "stride" about in the Wild and earn the nickname "Strider." Anyway, Aragorn doesn't even go out into the Wild knowing his true name and ancestry until he turns twenty. And even then and thereafter, he goes about under any number of assumed names for a great many years.

Quite a bit doesn't add up here, and if Legolas actually follows his dad's advice, he will have about seven decades to wander around lost before Lord Elrond reveals Aragorn's true name and lineage to all those assembed at The Council of Elrond in October of 3018.

Hard to say all that in a few lines of verse, so "one ten-year-old boy" will have to suffice.

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by Michael Murry

I really have to wonder about how much of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit" (books and films) can remain in certain private hands, for their commercial exploitation only. So many millions of people, over such a long period of time, have read and/or seen this material, that it already seems part of the general world culture. For example: in the bestselling book, The Martian, by Andy Weir -- and in its subsequent film adaptation -- a hero astronaut finds himself marooned on the planet Mars, while a group of NASA employees has a meeting to discuss a controversial plan to rescue him. The book depicts the scene as follows:



The movie scene has a bit more unspoken resonance because Sean Bean, the actor who portrayed the “Mitch” character (a NASA flight director) also played Boromir, an attendee at the film version of the Council of Elrond, from Book II of LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring. Additionally, in the movie but not the book, the character Teddy (Director of NASA) adds: “If we're going to call something 'Project Elrond,' I'd like my code name to be 'Glorfindel',” which would indicate that the character had read the books since the elf character Glorfindel never appeared in Peter Jackson's film version of The Fellowship. Of course, the movie version had to clean up the language somewhat, with the first and last lines of dialogue changed to "What the hell is 'Project Elrond'?" and "I hate every one of you," respectively.

I find it hard to believe that the publishers and producers of The Martian - book and film -- would have had to pay royalties or other forms of "compensation" to the Tolkien Estate or various film studios for making reference to "The Council of Elrond" in their own work. I checked inside the front and back covers of the book for CYA disclaimers and found only the standard generic one:

"This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, and incidents either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, events, or locales is entirely coincidental."

I wonder how far the producers of the projected television series can stretch this "fictitious" and "entirely coincidental" kind of legalistic denial.

You know I wonder if it's good or bad Tolkien's works have the shining omnipresent legacy they do.

A part of me says yes and a part of me says no.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

You know I wonder if it's good or bad Tolkien's works have the shining omnipresent legacy they do.

I see it as an inevitable stage in their transmutation from literature to true myth.

Michael, thanks for a little trip down memory lane, back to the days where we could only surmise which of our nightmares would be fulfilled by PJ & company. I'll pass your thanks for the verse on to Uncle Ezra.

Originally Posted by Michael Murry

Therefore, in 2942 when Thranduil attempts to advise his son Legolas where to go: (1) No one but Elrond and Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, know Aragorn's true name or his ancestry. Aragorn himself answers to the name of "Estel." (2) Aragorn lives in Imladris under his pseudonym and not with the Dunedian in the north whose existence he probably doesn't even know about. (3) At the age of ten or eleven his legs have not grown long enough for him to "stride" about in the Wild and earn the nickname "Strider." Anyway, Aragorn doesn't even go out into the Wild knowing his true name and ancestry until he turns twenty. And even then and thereafter, he goes about under any number of assumed names for a great many years.

Quite a bit doesn't add up here, and if Legolas actually follows hid dad's advice, he will have about seven decades to wander around lost before Lord Elrond reveals Aragorn's true name and lineage to all those assembed at The Council of Elrond in October of 3018.

Now this could be material for an epic multi-season series! "Legolas: The Search For Strider" would follow ranger and elf-prince on their separate but interwoven adventures through the wild and uncharted realms of Middle-earth, even to Rhûn and Harad, where the stars are strange, with every foreshadowed meeting ending in a near miss. We could watch Aragorn serve incognito under Thengel and Ecthelion, the barbaric tribes of the East and South would add an exotic flair to rival the Essos and Dorne scenes in GoT, complete with scantily clad oriental princesses and conlangs by David Peterson; for the horror element we could have the Black Riders stretching their limbs after awaking from millennial sleep during The Hobbit, and maybe one of those sorcerous cults the Blue Wizards are reported to have started. Every now and then Galadriel would PM Legolas telepathically, telling him in broken Elvish that Strider is in grave danger and Leggy must hasten to save him, but of course Aragorn has saved himself by the time Leggy arrives. We could even have a little L/A slash as long as Leggy doesn't realize that this ruggedly handsome man who awakens unforeseen desire in him is 'Strider'.

(I'm kidding, of course... or am I? Part of me wouldn't mind watching such a cinematic fan fic, minus the Legolas part and other obvious silliness--if only it were perfectly clear that it's nothing but that, fan fic, and we wouldn't have to explain to future Piles of Bones that Aragorn's fling with that Easterling princess who secretly meant to betray him to dark!Pallando never really happened.)