Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm leaning towards Shagrat keeping mum about the whole thing about the Elf warrior in a "not my fault, I don't know anything, it was all Gorbag" kind of way.

Would it have been possible for Shagrat to have kept anything back from Sauron at that juncture?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Would it have been possible for Shagrat to have kept anything back from Sauron at that juncture?

If he reported straight to Sauron and not a next in rank...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If he reported straight to Sauron and not a next in rank...

In this post, WCH pointed out to my gratitude that Sauron appears to have interrogated (and executed) Shagrat in person; Professor Tolkien wrote the following in the currently unpublished time scheme he used to keep track of what was happening in the story (as seen here, relevant quote circled by some internet user):

Shagrat brings the Mithril Coat and other spoils to Barad-dûr, but is slain by Sauron.

If he was killed by Sauron, it seems likely to me that he was also questioned by him. Grishnákh mentioned a "Questioner" (with a capital Q) to Merry and Pippin, although who that was is obviously unclear.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Would it have been possible for Shagrat to have kept anything back from Sauron at that juncture?

Personally I imagine that Shragrat was probably quite open with Sauron, perhaps thinking that he was going to make himself look good. If he was loyal/obedient/stupid enough to deliver Frodo's equipment (and therefore evidence of his own incompetence) to his superiors at Barad-dûr, I might be willing to imagine that he was also honest and thorough in his report.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Personally I imagine that Shragrat was probably quite open with Sauron, perhaps thinking that he was going to make himself look good. If he was loyal/obedient/stupid enough to deliver Frodo's equipment (and therefore evidence of his own incompetence) to his superiors at Barad-dûr, I might be willing to imagine that he was also honest and thorough in his report.

I don't think 'honest and thorough' is entirely accurate - initially. Check out the quote Nerwen posted (with a bit more for context):

Originally Posted by RotK: The Land of Shadow

"That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together."

"Ar!" said the tracker. "They’ve lost their heads, that’s what it is. And some of the bosses are going to lose their skins too, I guess, if what I hear is true: Tower raided and all, and hundreds of your lads done in, and prisoner got away..."

It sounds like Shagrat's initial report was simply 'we caught a prisoner, here's what he had'. From back in 'The Choices of Master Samwise', we know he probably didn't send that message ahead:

`All right! But if I were you, I'd catch the big one that's loose, before you send in any report to Lugbúrz. It won't sound too pretty to say you've caught the kitten and let the cat escape.'

(I feel like there was a point where we saw a Nazgul leave the Tower, but I think that was probably to do with Isengard instead? I may be wrong, but it doesn't really alter the narrative.)

Unfortunately for Shagrat, the next question must have been 'so where is he?'. To which the answer can only be 'he got away'. Uh-oh. 'How? You had an entire army of orcs in that Tower!'

What's a cowardly Captain to say? The answer he's been working on all along: 'this elf-warrior stormed the Tower, killed all my boys, and took him away...'

So the message goes out to scour the Black Land for a tall elf, but Shagrat doesn't get long to bask in the glory. At this point, if he's not already being questioned by Sauron, he gets taken directly to the Lord of the Black Land. I imagine Sauron would operate something like the Romans treated slaves - when an orc tells you something that might be important, torture and interrogate him to check whether it's true. After all, what's one orc less?

And Shagrat's story does change. It emerges that while his mention of an elven sword holds up, the warrior in question was actually 'another one of the little rats' - a halfling, a sort of small dwarf-man. Fine (thinks Sauron), I know Saruman had and lost one of those, I know Gandalf keeps sending them out on all sorts of stupid errands, I know in fact that one was used to sneak into Erebor and scout for the attack on Smaug... clearly this is another sneaky trick like that. And he sends out the word that they need to watch for Hobbits.

At this point, Sauron has already had his showdown with Aragorn via palantir. He's already lost a battle of wills. He's rattled. In fact, he's thrown his entire army at Minas Tirith and failed to take it. He's certain that Aragorn has the Ring - hence why 'Shire! Baggins!' doesn't even occur to him as a reason for Frodo's presence - and he thinks that Frodo and Sam are scouts for the invasion.

Except... that doesn't explain why the Captain of the Tower is here in person, and wounded to boot. Has the invasion already started? Send for Shagrat again!

So now, instead of the prisoner, Shagrat is being interrogated about the fall of the Tower. And yes, he has to admit it fell - but his explanation is garbled (because, y'know, he's been tortured). Sauron manages to gather that it wasn't the Hobbits who killed everyone, or an army from the West - but orcs, claiming to be from Minas Morgul.

And the pieces fall into place in his well-machined mind. Saruman has Uruk-hai in his service. Saruman presented a halfling to his palantir and then fell silent - and the next time the Palantir was used, it was Isildur's Heir, bearing Isildur's Sword, and wielding the Ring Isildur stole (so Sauron believes). Saruman's fortress is full of those irritating children of Yavanna's, with no sign of his armies. Saruman has always been suspect, as a long-time ally of the West. Saruman, not the Grey Fool (what, you thought the Voice of Saruman had no effect on Sauron's thought processes?), is behind everything. Saruman, wielding Isildur's Heir like a puppet, is sneaking his own orcs into Mordor to take over...

It's a perfectly logical story which happens to be wrong in every particular. But it feeds into and off Sauron's prejudices, specifically the belief that no-one would ever give up any source of power. Aragorn must have the Ring, because why would he surrender it? He must have sought alliance with Saruman, because Saruman is strong (and his Voice is persuasive enough to sway anyone). To Sauron's Eye, Aragorn+Saruman is the enemy now, and hobbits + orcs are the invaders.

So out goes the third message: The Enemy Is Us. Look out for rebel Uruk-hai in Mordor. Keep a special eye out for deserters, who might be defecting. And bring everyone up to Udûn - the Nazgul are watching the Tower now, he'll know if there's an invasion from that side.

And since Shagrat is now useless - he lost his command, he's been in contact with rebel troops, and he's only got a few fingers left besides - Sauron might as well kill him off.

I don't think there's textual evidence for the 'Sauron believes Saruman has turned' theory, but I do think it all hangs together. So now, naturally, it's going to get ripped to shreds.

hS

[Galadriel55]

It's an interesting theory of an Uruk-hai sabotage, Huinesoron - except in your version Sauron finds out there were TWO hobbits involved. If that was the case, the Mouth would have been talking in plural. What's another bluff in that speech?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's an interesting theory of an Uruk-hai sabotage, Huinesoron - except in your version Sauron finds out there were TWO hobbits involved. If that was the case, the Mouth would have been talking in plural. What's another bluff in that speech?

Hmm, that's an excellent point. So I guess we have to assume that the 'elf warrior' story was disregarded completely by the Powers That Be - first in favour of 'Frodo escaped by himself' ('there was no elf warrior... just the short one...'), and then 'an orcish rebellion helped him get away'.

Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'.

Whatever the details, I kind of appreciate the fact that Frodo's success wasn't just a run of blind luck, but the result of Sauron being repeatedly fed both deliberate and accidental misinformation. From the moment Pippin looked into the Palantir, Sauron seems to have had everything 100% backwards - and that led directly to his downfall.

hS

[Zigûr]

A good post from Huinesoron. Here are a few things I've observed.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It sounds like Shagrat's initial report was simply 'we caught a prisoner, here's what he had'. From back in 'The Choices of Master Samwise', we know he probably didn't send that message ahead:

`All right! But if I were you, I'd catch the big one that's loose, before you send in any report to Lugbúrz. It won't sound too pretty to say you've caught the kitten and let the cat escape.'

I suppose it would depend on whether Shagrat followed Gorbag's advice or ignored it. If he ignored it and sent a preliminary report to Barad-dûr, that might explain the conflicting information the scouts had later.

I feel like there was a point where we saw a Nazgul leave the Tower, but I think that was probably to do with Isengard instead?

On the early morning of the 6th of March a Ringwraith flew to Isengard in response to Pippin looking into the Orthanc-stone; another one had already gone on the night of the 5th to investigate why Saruman was being tardy with his reports. At this time Frodo and Sam were still at the Morannon. By the time Frodo was captured on the 13th, I think Sauron would have definitely known that Saruman had been defeated and the power of Isengard overthrown.
However, when Frodo and Sam left Cirith Ungol on the 15th, a Ringwraith arrived at the tower:
"Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek."
This Nazgûl was already in the vicinity the day before Shagrat reached Barad-dûr, and it doesn't seem to have been en route to somewhere else (such as Isengard or the Pelennor) because the Orcs in the area knew it had taken charge:

'I'll give your name and number to the Nazgûl,' said the soldier lowering his voice to a hiss. 'One of them's in charge at the Tower now.'

In addition, Sam felt it outside the tower for a period of time:

I think this place is being watched. I can't explain it, but well: it feels to me as if one of those foul flying Riders was about, up in the blackness where he can't be seen.

This suggests to me that a Wraith was sent to Cirith Ungol deliberately in response to something prior to Shagrat's arrival at Barad-dûr, which happened on the 16th according to the unpublished time scheme. In fact, the time scheme points out (as far as I can interpret Professor Tolkien's handwriting) that on the 15th "News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Baraddûr (sic) almost as soon as news of their capture."
I can't explain the use of plural, but this suggests the following to me:
1. Frodo was captured.
2. News of this was sent to Barad-dûr
3. The Orcs quarrel; Shagrat leaves for Barad-dûr
4. I'm unsure of this part, but then possibly news of the capture reaches Barad-dûr. A Nazgûl flies to Cirith Ungol but arrives to find the guards dead and the prisoner gone.
5. Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr, is interrogated and executed.

Perhaps I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, but it seems to me that information came to the Dark Tower before Shagrat's own arrival.

In any event, this is all very interesting, isn't it? I always find piecing the timeline together satisfying.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that even if Shagrat did not send an initial report, word may have come to the Dark Tower anyway; Shagrat didn't trust either Gorbag's company or his own. The Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol may have been watching in response to the Silent Watchers at Minas Morgul, I suppose. There's a lot to consider.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm, that's an excellent point. So I guess we have to assume that the 'elf warrior' story was disregarded completely by the Powers That Be - first in favour of 'Frodo escaped by himself' ('there was no elf warrior... just the short one...'), and then 'an orcish rebellion helped him get away'.

Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'.

There is a flaw with this, however, in that Shagrat actually fought Sam (however briefly) so he knew and could have potentially reported that there was more than one enemy in Cirith Ungol. He might have had the same problem as Snaga in understanding that Sam was a hobbit but he could have been in no doubt that Sam was an enemy. Of course, it is likely that the orcs were not familiar with hobbits and wouldn't be able to classify them as such and Sauron figured it out from the descriptions.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't think 'honest and thorough' is entirely accurate

I think the point is more that Shagrat would not have the strength of will or greatness of soul required to defy Sauron in any way in Sauron's direct presence. I believe abject submissiveness and groveling is what we need to picture, a pathetic and desperate need to try and please.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

And since Shagrat is now useless - he lost his command, he's been in contact with rebel troops, and he's only got a few fingers left besides - Sauron might as well kill him off.

I don't think Sauron killed Shagrat out of callous disregard for Shagrat's life. He executed Shagrat for his catastrophic failures of command in allowing a strategic border garrison to be destroyed due to a internecine squabble.

For that kind of fault Shagrat would have been executed by practically every military in history.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This suggests to me that a Wraith was sent to Cirith Ungol deliberately in response to something prior to Shagrat's arrival at Barad-dûr, which happened on the 16th according to the unpublished time scheme. In fact, the time scheme points out (as far as I can interpret Professor Tolkien's handwriting) that on the 15th "News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Baraddûr (sic) almost as soon as news of their capture."
I can't explain the use of plural, but this suggests the following to me:
1. Frodo was captured.
2. News of this was sent to Barad-dûr
3. The Orcs quarrel; Shagrat leaves for Barad-dûr
4. I'm unsure of this part, but then possibly news of the capture reaches Barad-dûr. A Nazgûl flies to Cirith Ungol but arrives to find the guards dead and the prisoner gone.
5. Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr, is interrogated and executed.

Perhaps I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, but it seems to me that information came to the Dark Tower before Shagrat's own arrival.

In any event, this is all very interesting, isn't it? I always find piecing the timeline together satisfying.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that even if Shagrat did not send an initial report, word may have come to the Dark Tower anyway; Shagrat didn't trust either Gorbag's company or his own. The Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol may have been watching in response to the Silent Watchers at Minas Morgul, I suppose. There's a lot to consider.

What sort of means might Shagrat have had to send such a message so quickly?

In fact, this opens up a potentially wider topic on communication, but focusing on the topic at hand; Minas Morgul clearly had some kind of hotline straight to Barad-dur. It is possible that some kind of Ósanwe continually connected Sauron to the Ringwraiths, although they are spoken of as communicating through mundane means as well. Another likely possibility is Sauron made use of a kind of fell-beast express for transmitting messages.

However, we hear nothing about any kind of facilities for such existing at Cirith Ungol and clearly Sauron was not in direct telepathic communication with his orcish minions.

Were the Watchers, perhaps, in some way hooked into a wider "security net" for Mordor where Sauron would be aware if one of the Watchers in the realm was uneasy?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What sort of means might Shagrat have had to send such a message so quickly?

I would imagine that the first message ("prisoner captured at Cirith Ungol"), if it existed, was sent the conventional way, on foot. If it was sent on the 13th it might arrive on the 15th, as I believe Shagrat left on the 14th and arrived on the 16th. Then I imagine that the second piece of news ("prisoner escaped") was not sent by Shagrat at all, but communicated quickly by the means you've discussed (which I also discuss a bit more below). Unlike a message sent on foot, there's time for all of that news-sending to happen on the 15th if it was done by air (or some supernatural means). Then the third piece of news is delivered by Shagrat on the 16th.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Another likely possibility is Sauron made use of a kind of fell-beast express for transmitting messages.
[...]
Were the Watchers, perhaps, in some way hooked into a wider "security net" for Mordor where Sauron would be aware if one of the Watchers in the realm was uneasy?

Yes, these were the two possibilities which occurred to me; one possibility is that the hypothetical news sent by foot arrived on the 15th, a Ringwraith investigated and discovered what had happened since, hastily flew back to the Dark Tower with news, and then returned to Cirith Ungol to take command. All this could conceivably have happened before Shagrat reached Barad-dûr. The other I considered is that the alarms of the Watchers revealed that something had gone wrong.

That or, as you say, some kind of telepathic link between Sauron and the Nazgûl, although I'm not sure how much evidence there is for that (and I suspect that there may be evidence to the contrary, as you've also indicated).