Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Personally I imagine that Shragrat was probably quite open with Sauron, perhaps thinking that he was going to make himself look good. If he was loyal/obedient/stupid enough to deliver Frodo's equipment (and therefore evidence of his own incompetence) to his superiors at Barad-dûr, I might be willing to imagine that he was also honest and thorough in his report.

I don't think 'honest and thorough' is entirely accurate - initially. Check out the quote Nerwen posted (with a bit more for context):

Originally Posted by RotK: The Land of Shadow

"That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together."

"Ar!" said the tracker. "They’ve lost their heads, that’s what it is. And some of the bosses are going to lose their skins too, I guess, if what I hear is true: Tower raided and all, and hundreds of your lads done in, and prisoner got away..."

It sounds like Shagrat's initial report was simply 'we caught a prisoner, here's what he had'. From back in 'The Choices of Master Samwise', we know he probably didn't send that message ahead:

`All right! But if I were you, I'd catch the big one that's loose, before you send in any report to Lugbúrz. It won't sound too pretty to say you've caught the kitten and let the cat escape.'

(I feel like there was a point where we saw a Nazgul leave the Tower, but I think that was probably to do with Isengard instead? I may be wrong, but it doesn't really alter the narrative.)

Unfortunately for Shagrat, the next question must have been 'so where is he?'. To which the answer can only be 'he got away'. Uh-oh. 'How? You had an entire army of orcs in that Tower!'

What's a cowardly Captain to say? The answer he's been working on all along: 'this elf-warrior stormed the Tower, killed all my boys, and took him away...'

So the message goes out to scour the Black Land for a tall elf, but Shagrat doesn't get long to bask in the glory. At this point, if he's not already being questioned by Sauron, he gets taken directly to the Lord of the Black Land. I imagine Sauron would operate something like the Romans treated slaves - when an orc tells you something that might be important, torture and interrogate him to check whether it's true. After all, what's one orc less?

And Shagrat's story does change. It emerges that while his mention of an elven sword holds up, the warrior in question was actually 'another one of the little rats' - a halfling, a sort of small dwarf-man. Fine (thinks Sauron), I know Saruman had and lost one of those, I know Gandalf keeps sending them out on all sorts of stupid errands, I know in fact that one was used to sneak into Erebor and scout for the attack on Smaug... clearly this is another sneaky trick like that. And he sends out the word that they need to watch for Hobbits.

At this point, Sauron has already had his showdown with Aragorn via palantir. He's already lost a battle of wills. He's rattled. In fact, he's thrown his entire army at Minas Tirith and failed to take it. He's certain that Aragorn has the Ring - hence why 'Shire! Baggins!' doesn't even occur to him as a reason for Frodo's presence - and he thinks that Frodo and Sam are scouts for the invasion.

Except... that doesn't explain why the Captain of the Tower is here in person, and wounded to boot. Has the invasion already started? Send for Shagrat again!

So now, instead of the prisoner, Shagrat is being interrogated about the fall of the Tower. And yes, he has to admit it fell - but his explanation is garbled (because, y'know, he's been tortured). Sauron manages to gather that it wasn't the Hobbits who killed everyone, or an army from the West - but orcs, claiming to be from Minas Morgul.

And the pieces fall into place in his well-machined mind. Saruman has Uruk-hai in his service. Saruman presented a halfling to his palantir and then fell silent - and the next time the Palantir was used, it was Isildur's Heir, bearing Isildur's Sword, and wielding the Ring Isildur stole (so Sauron believes). Saruman's fortress is full of those irritating children of Yavanna's, with no sign of his armies. Saruman has always been suspect, as a long-time ally of the West. Saruman, not the Grey Fool (what, you thought the Voice of Saruman had no effect on Sauron's thought processes?), is behind everything. Saruman, wielding Isildur's Heir like a puppet, is sneaking his own orcs into Mordor to take over...

It's a perfectly logical story which happens to be wrong in every particular. But it feeds into and off Sauron's prejudices, specifically the belief that no-one would ever give up any source of power. Aragorn must have the Ring, because why would he surrender it? He must have sought alliance with Saruman, because Saruman is strong (and his Voice is persuasive enough to sway anyone). To Sauron's Eye, Aragorn+Saruman is the enemy now, and hobbits + orcs are the invaders.

So out goes the third message: The Enemy Is Us. Look out for rebel Uruk-hai in Mordor. Keep a special eye out for deserters, who might be defecting. And bring everyone up to Udûn - the Nazgul are watching the Tower now, he'll know if there's an invasion from that side.

And since Shagrat is now useless - he lost his command, he's been in contact with rebel troops, and he's only got a few fingers left besides - Sauron might as well kill him off.

I don't think there's textual evidence for the 'Sauron believes Saruman has turned' theory, but I do think it all hangs together. So now, naturally, it's going to get ripped to shreds.

hS

[Galadriel55]

It's an interesting theory of an Uruk-hai sabotage, Huinesoron - except in your version Sauron finds out there were TWO hobbits involved. If that was the case, the Mouth would have been talking in plural. What's another bluff in that speech?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's an interesting theory of an Uruk-hai sabotage, Huinesoron - except in your version Sauron finds out there were TWO hobbits involved. If that was the case, the Mouth would have been talking in plural. What's another bluff in that speech?

Hmm, that's an excellent point. So I guess we have to assume that the 'elf warrior' story was disregarded completely by the Powers That Be - first in favour of 'Frodo escaped by himself' ('there was no elf warrior... just the short one...'), and then 'an orcish rebellion helped him get away'.

Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'.

Whatever the details, I kind of appreciate the fact that Frodo's success wasn't just a run of blind luck, but the result of Sauron being repeatedly fed both deliberate and accidental misinformation. From the moment Pippin looked into the Palantir, Sauron seems to have had everything 100% backwards - and that led directly to his downfall.

hS

[Zigûr]

A good post from Huinesoron. Here are a few things I've observed.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It sounds like Shagrat's initial report was simply 'we caught a prisoner, here's what he had'. From back in 'The Choices of Master Samwise', we know he probably didn't send that message ahead:

`All right! But if I were you, I'd catch the big one that's loose, before you send in any report to Lugbúrz. It won't sound too pretty to say you've caught the kitten and let the cat escape.'

I suppose it would depend on whether Shagrat followed Gorbag's advice or ignored it. If he ignored it and sent a preliminary report to Barad-dûr, that might explain the conflicting information the scouts had later.

I feel like there was a point where we saw a Nazgul leave the Tower, but I think that was probably to do with Isengard instead?

On the early morning of the 6th of March a Ringwraith flew to Isengard in response to Pippin looking into the Orthanc-stone; another one had already gone on the night of the 5th to investigate why Saruman was being tardy with his reports. At this time Frodo and Sam were still at the Morannon. By the time Frodo was captured on the 13th, I think Sauron would have definitely known that Saruman had been defeated and the power of Isengard overthrown.
However, when Frodo and Sam left Cirith Ungol on the 15th, a Ringwraith arrived at the tower:
"Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek."
This Nazgûl was already in the vicinity the day before Shagrat reached Barad-dûr, and it doesn't seem to have been en route to somewhere else (such as Isengard or the Pelennor) because the Orcs in the area knew it had taken charge:

'I'll give your name and number to the Nazgûl,' said the soldier lowering his voice to a hiss. 'One of them's in charge at the Tower now.'

In addition, Sam felt it outside the tower for a period of time:

I think this place is being watched. I can't explain it, but well: it feels to me as if one of those foul flying Riders was about, up in the blackness where he can't be seen.

This suggests to me that a Wraith was sent to Cirith Ungol deliberately in response to something prior to Shagrat's arrival at Barad-dûr, which happened on the 16th according to the unpublished time scheme. In fact, the time scheme points out (as far as I can interpret Professor Tolkien's handwriting) that on the 15th "News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Baraddûr (sic) almost as soon as news of their capture."
I can't explain the use of plural, but this suggests the following to me:
1. Frodo was captured.
2. News of this was sent to Barad-dûr
3. The Orcs quarrel; Shagrat leaves for Barad-dûr
4. I'm unsure of this part, but then possibly news of the capture reaches Barad-dûr. A Nazgûl flies to Cirith Ungol but arrives to find the guards dead and the prisoner gone.
5. Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr, is interrogated and executed.

Perhaps I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, but it seems to me that information came to the Dark Tower before Shagrat's own arrival.

In any event, this is all very interesting, isn't it? I always find piecing the timeline together satisfying.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that even if Shagrat did not send an initial report, word may have come to the Dark Tower anyway; Shagrat didn't trust either Gorbag's company or his own. The Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol may have been watching in response to the Silent Watchers at Minas Morgul, I suppose. There's a lot to consider.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm, that's an excellent point. So I guess we have to assume that the 'elf warrior' story was disregarded completely by the Powers That Be - first in favour of 'Frodo escaped by himself' ('there was no elf warrior... just the short one...'), and then 'an orcish rebellion helped him get away'.

Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'.

There is a flaw with this, however, in that Shagrat actually fought Sam (however briefly) so he knew and could have potentially reported that there was more than one enemy in Cirith Ungol. He might have had the same problem as Snaga in understanding that Sam was a hobbit but he could have been in no doubt that Sam was an enemy. Of course, it is likely that the orcs were not familiar with hobbits and wouldn't be able to classify them as such and Sauron figured it out from the descriptions.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't think 'honest and thorough' is entirely accurate

I think the point is more that Shagrat would not have the strength of will or greatness of soul required to defy Sauron in any way in Sauron's direct presence. I believe abject submissiveness and groveling is what we need to picture, a pathetic and desperate need to try and please.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

And since Shagrat is now useless - he lost his command, he's been in contact with rebel troops, and he's only got a few fingers left besides - Sauron might as well kill him off.

I don't think Sauron killed Shagrat out of callous disregard for Shagrat's life. He executed Shagrat for his catastrophic failures of command in allowing a strategic border garrison to be destroyed due to a internecine squabble.

For that kind of fault Shagrat would have been executed by practically every military in history.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This suggests to me that a Wraith was sent to Cirith Ungol deliberately in response to something prior to Shagrat's arrival at Barad-dûr, which happened on the 16th according to the unpublished time scheme. In fact, the time scheme points out (as far as I can interpret Professor Tolkien's handwriting) that on the 15th "News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Baraddûr (sic) almost as soon as news of their capture."
I can't explain the use of plural, but this suggests the following to me:
1. Frodo was captured.
2. News of this was sent to Barad-dûr
3. The Orcs quarrel; Shagrat leaves for Barad-dûr
4. I'm unsure of this part, but then possibly news of the capture reaches Barad-dûr. A Nazgûl flies to Cirith Ungol but arrives to find the guards dead and the prisoner gone.
5. Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr, is interrogated and executed.

Perhaps I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, but it seems to me that information came to the Dark Tower before Shagrat's own arrival.

In any event, this is all very interesting, isn't it? I always find piecing the timeline together satisfying.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that even if Shagrat did not send an initial report, word may have come to the Dark Tower anyway; Shagrat didn't trust either Gorbag's company or his own. The Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol may have been watching in response to the Silent Watchers at Minas Morgul, I suppose. There's a lot to consider.

What sort of means might Shagrat have had to send such a message so quickly?

In fact, this opens up a potentially wider topic on communication, but focusing on the topic at hand; Minas Morgul clearly had some kind of hotline straight to Barad-dur. It is possible that some kind of Ósanwe continually connected Sauron to the Ringwraiths, although they are spoken of as communicating through mundane means as well. Another likely possibility is Sauron made use of a kind of fell-beast express for transmitting messages.

However, we hear nothing about any kind of facilities for such existing at Cirith Ungol and clearly Sauron was not in direct telepathic communication with his orcish minions.

Were the Watchers, perhaps, in some way hooked into a wider "security net" for Mordor where Sauron would be aware if one of the Watchers in the realm was uneasy?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What sort of means might Shagrat have had to send such a message so quickly?

I would imagine that the first message ("prisoner captured at Cirith Ungol"), if it existed, was sent the conventional way, on foot. If it was sent on the 13th it might arrive on the 15th, as I believe Shagrat left on the 14th and arrived on the 16th. Then I imagine that the second piece of news ("prisoner escaped") was not sent by Shagrat at all, but communicated quickly by the means you've discussed (which I also discuss a bit more below). Unlike a message sent on foot, there's time for all of that news-sending to happen on the 15th if it was done by air (or some supernatural means). Then the third piece of news is delivered by Shagrat on the 16th.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Another likely possibility is Sauron made use of a kind of fell-beast express for transmitting messages.
[...]
Were the Watchers, perhaps, in some way hooked into a wider "security net" for Mordor where Sauron would be aware if one of the Watchers in the realm was uneasy?

Yes, these were the two possibilities which occurred to me; one possibility is that the hypothetical news sent by foot arrived on the 15th, a Ringwraith investigated and discovered what had happened since, hastily flew back to the Dark Tower with news, and then returned to Cirith Ungol to take command. All this could conceivably have happened before Shagrat reached Barad-dûr. The other I considered is that the alarms of the Watchers revealed that something had gone wrong.

That or, as you say, some kind of telepathic link between Sauron and the Nazgûl, although I'm not sure how much evidence there is for that (and I suspect that there may be evidence to the contrary, as you've also indicated).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm, that's an excellent point. So I guess we have to assume that the 'elf warrior' story was disregarded completely by the Powers That Be - first in favour of 'Frodo escaped by himself' ('there was no elf warrior... just the short one...'), and then 'an orcish rebellion helped him get away'.

Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'.

I think you and G55 are looking at this through the lens of your own knowledge. Though the Mouth does mention the possibility that Frodo's "errand was one that you did not wish to fail", that's only in passing. I see no hint that he had any idea it was of *crucial* importance. It's Frodo *himself* whom he seems to think is the real prize.

In other words, in his ignorance he chooses *the wrong thing* to bluff over.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think you and G55 are looking at this through the lens of your own knowledge. Though the Mouth does mention the possibility that Frodo's "errand was one that you did not wish to fail", that's only in passing. I see no hint that he had any idea it was of *crucial* importance. It's Frodo *himself* whom he seems to think is the real prize.

In other words, in his ignorance he chooses *the wrong thing* to bluff over.

You may have a point about this. If he believes the hobbits (however many of them there are!) are there as spies, well, so what? The Nazgul are aware now, so there's no chance of them getting back out the way they came - and anyway, Aragorn's army is there. What can a spy or two in the heart of Mordor do to prevent their immanent destruction?

Well... quite a lot, as it turned out.

Zigûr - so we could have as many as five messages from the Tower to Lugbúrz, arriving spectacularly out-of-sequence. Let's see if I can reconstruct the timeline:

13th
Late in the day (I think? Sam says he thinks Frodo's been captive for a day or so, and they escape on the night of the 14th/15th), Frodo is taken captive. Shagrat had orders to send a message as soon as the prisoner's belongings had been checked; assuming he did so, it probably left that evening or the next morning. Message 1 - prisoner taken, list of belongings. Checking the timeline, it takes Frodo and Sam about four days to cover the distance; I would guess an orc could manage it in three, or two at a push.

14th
Fighting breaks out in the Tower over Frodo's belongings. Given Gorbag's comments earlier - 'If there's any game, me and my lads must be in it.' - and Shagrat's comments about him, it seems likely he's the one who started it.

Late in the day (or rather the night), Sam breaks past the Watchers, setting off the alarm in the Tower. This may telepathically inform Sauron and/or the Nazgûl - the latter would explain something a bit later. Message 2 - security breach.

Message 2 is received immediately. Sauron knows something is going on (but not what).

Sam battles his way through the Tower and finds Frodo. Shagrat flees the Tower and heads to Lugbúrz, carrying Frodo's belongings with him. Message 3 - fighting in the Tower, Frodo's belongings, Sam's appearance.

15th
Frodo and Sam leave the Tower, shattering the Watchers and potentially alerting Sauron or Morgul. Message 4 - catastrophic security breack. A moment later, a Winged Messenger comes screeching down out of the sky. What was it doing there? How about responding to the break-in alarm the previous night? It could have been circling overhead, waiting to see what would happen. This would partially confirm Message 2 as happening, which would confirm Message 4.

Message 4 is received immediately. Sauron knows the Tower has been fully breached, and may know that Elvish art was involved (depending on the detail levels).

Whatever the case, the Nazgûl would certainly inform Sauron as soon as possible, which means very soon (one way or another). Message 5 - fall of the Tower, guard almost entirely dead.

Message 5 is received that morning. Sauron knows the Tower has fallen, but he still doesn't know why!

16th
Message 1 probably arrives at Lugbúrz on this day (if it was ever sent); Sauron probably kills the messenger, because who wants to hear 'we've caught a prisoner' after already knowing that everyone's dead? The mention of hobbits probably intrigues him - particularly if he knows exactly how the Witch-King died (which he might). Think of all the high-level deaths the hobbits have been involved in! Since around the fall of Dol Guldur, they and the people with them have killed a Dragon, a Balrog, and the Lord of the Nazgûl, and have been part of the downfall of Saruman. And it was one of their ilk that had His Ring for all those centuries...

17th
Message 5 is probably received early on this day. What does Shagrat say, as he runs breathless into the Dark Tower? If Message 1 never happened (it's possible Gorbag killed the messenger - we know from Snaga that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out), then he probably leads with 'we caught a prisoner', but he's not going to be able to hide the fact that the Tower has fallen. If he even tries - so much the worse for him. Sauron already has at least one message about the fall, and up to three.

So what did Sauron find out from him? We know that the first story Shagrat gave was 'shining elf-warrior', and that this was believed long enough to be passed on to the police (as it were). Could this have been the point where Sauron summoned him directly? If Sauron spoke to him first, then we have to assume he lied to the Dark Lord, which (as Kuruharan says) seems a little far-fetched.

Now that he is in the presence of Sauron, Shagrat reveals everything - the presence of two hobbits (I will admit that the possibility of his words being vague enough to imply only one is... remote), and the fighting between the guards. The message goes out to look for hobbits, Shagrat is executed for his execrable command skills...

... and then Sauron has about eight days to stew before Aragorn, the presumed Ringbearer, shows up at his gate.

This is where the 'rebel Uruk-hai' story comes in, and it actually comes pretty quick: it looks like Frodo and Sam overheard the Soldier and Tracker discussing it on the 18th. Whether it sprang from my Saruman theory (which doesn't depend on inaccurate reporting), or from generalised concerns about rebellion at Minas Morgul (whence Gorbag), it clearly came to Sauron's mind very quickly.

I dunno, I quite like the image of the Dark Lord working himself up into an absolute paranoid panic for a full week as Aragorn approaches and he waits for the other shoe to drop...

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The same unpublished time-scheme referenced above also has this entry, for March 15:

News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Barad-dûr almost as soon as news of their capture.

So there were three separate messages: one announcing the capture, a second announcing the escape, and the third being Shagrat. Note that March 15 is the day of the escape, and two days before Shagrat's arrival with the mithril-coat etc. I think therefore we can assume 2 days' journey (as the Orc runs) between Cirith Ungol and Barad-dur; this is consonant with the news of the capture (on March 13th) arriving on the 15th. Whereas the news of the escape was brought by some mode much, much faster, almost certainly a Nazgul. I don't think it much of a stretch that the Nazgul that arrived just as F&S were escaping had been dispatched expressly because of the news that a "spy" had been captured, and its (original) assignment was to return the prisoner for interrogation; and that instead it returned to Lugburz to report on the clusterfark it found.

(I think we can disregard Tolkien's use of a plural here as a slip, in a note jotted in haste. No version of the story ever had Sam taken prisoner).

Why did Sauron take no more decisive action when the first message arrived? Because he had other things on his mind-- like his main army assaulting the principal stronghold of his enemies, and unexpectedly being annihilated. That pretty much had the Eye's undivided attention on March 15.

(Nazgul and Osanwe? An argument against is that another Nazgul was dispatched to B-D to carry the news that the Witch-King had been destroyed; not something which would justify pulling a major combat asset out of the battle if it weren't the only mode of communication. Note also that Sauron dispatched a second Nazgul in response to Pippin's looking into the Palantir, rather than re-tasking the one which was already en route to Rohan. And, finally, other writings incl. the time-schemes make it clear that Sauron was unaware of the events at the Bruinen until the Witch-king arrived in Mordor weeks later. All this suggests strongly that the Ringwraiths did not have radio comms with HQ.)