Female Nazgûl???

[William Cloud Hicklin]

To which I would simply respond: it's Tolkien's universe, not ours. One which includes neither Shai-hulud from Dune, Nazgul tombs, dying Arwens nor isolated Orc societies on Tol Fuin.

[Galin]

My Tolkien Universe doesn't even include Tol Fuin (or Himling).

So all yer orcs there... are drownded

But don't get me wrong, I'm still a fun person.

[Nerwen]

Well, this just becomes another iteration of the canonicity debate, doesn't it?

Really I see nothing wrong with theories, however outlandish, as long as you don't start insisting they be accepted as the "real" version- which people have been known to do, of course. But that's not the impression I'm getting in this case.

[Inziladun]

I don't know if anyone brought this up already, but there is a quote from the Unfinished Tales section The Hunt For the Ring which states:

At length [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, each being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him.

Definitive? Not really, but I do think that if one of the Nazgûl had been female, that would have been a notable enough occurrence to have stated someplace.

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't know if anyone brought this up already, but there is a quote from the Unfinished Tales section The Hunt For the Ring which states:

Ah, but as the Ringwraiths are being spoken of collectively here, "him" could have its secondary meaning of "a person etc of unspecified sex"- technically there's no way to tell in that context.

Definitive? Not really, but I do think that if one of the Nazgûl had been female, that would have been a notable enough occurrence to have stated someplace.

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

Invisible? What makes you think Nazgûl-esses are invisible? How would fan-fic authors be able to write paragraphs describing their exquisitely Gothic loveliness if they were invisible? I ask you.

By the way, do half-Nazgûl count?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

To which I would simply respond: it's Tolkien's universe, not ours. One which includes neither Shai-hulud from Dune, Nazgul tombs, dying Arwens nor isolated Orc societies on Tol Fuin.

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

Tongue obviously firmly in cheek for the above (and please don't take offence - my forceful tone isn't reflected by a forcefulness of spirit), but the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

That said... no, Tolkien didn't put female Ringwraiths into Middle-earth.

(Or toilets.)

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

This is actually a much more valid argument than you'd think. Remember that Sauron has had contact with a female sorcerer - name of Luthien. She killed his entire army of werewolves, took him prisoner, tore down his tower, and sent him home in disgrace. Sure, she had help, but if Sauron saw her success as a function of her sex, he might well think twice before even potentially creating a second Tinuviel.

(On the other hand... to have one on his side...)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

Tongue obviously firmly in cheek for the above (and please don't take offence - my forceful tone isn't reflected by a forcefulness of spirit), but the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

That said... no, Tolkien didn't put female Ringwraiths into Middle-earth.

(Or toilets.)

It's one thing to fill in gaps. It's connecting the dots by following a pattern. One day we see Frodo and Sam on the Anduin, amd another they are far from it, and we fill in the gap and do not assume they teleported. But we don't assume they got there with the help of a fairy who wore polkadotted clothes and shouted in Greek.

If all you say is that it's up to us to fill in the gaps, then gaps can be filled with whatever we want. That's how you get Jackson movies. I would augment your argument with that the fillers must also fit the pattern of the overall picture. Do toilets make sense given all that we know? Do colourful Greek fairies on the Eastern bank of the Great River?

And as far as patterns go, you'd need to trace one that would support a female Nazgul to pull it off. Female warriors with power, who could be corrupted by Sauron. Sauron himself - would he pick this woman and why. So far most patterns I see point in the other direction.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

...the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

The difference lies in the fact that toilets, agriculture and taverns that open every day are ordinary things in the ordinary world, part of the nonsubcreated substrate upon which Tolkien built his subcreation. The reader may take them as read. At the next remove, Tolkien engaged in what Shippey called calquing: adding elements of a known primary-world culture, such as the Anglo-Saxons, which invite the reader to fill in the Rohirric blank with his own knowledge or impression of the Old English.

But this can't be extended to things like Nazgul which came completely out of his head. In fact, I think the balance is very slightly tilted the other way in that the primary calque for Middle-earth is of course medieval Europe, a culture not noted for its gender equality.

[Rhun charioteer]

While the Nazgul were all most certainly men. I don't see why hypothetically Sauron would have not given a ring to say a powerful easterling queen or sorceress under his control. No doubt in the east and south in middle earth there were such queens under his sway.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The difference lies in the fact that toilets, agriculture and taverns that open every day are ordinary things in the ordinary world, part of the nonsubcreated substrate upon which Tolkien built his subcreation. The reader may take them as read. At the next remove, Tolkien engaged in what Shippey called calquing: adding elements of a known primary-world culture, such as the Anglo-Saxons, which invite the reader to fill in the Rohirric blank with his own knowledge or impression of the Old English.

But this can't be extended to things like Nazgul which came completely out of his head. In fact, I think the balance is very slightly tilted the other way in that the primary calque for Middle-earth is of course medieval Europe, a culture not noted for its gender equality.

And yet Huinesoron's "theory" (or wild speculation) concerns one of the perfectly canonical Ruling Queens of Númenor. You can't really argue that an author *wouldn't* include something if, you know, he did. I don't think Tolkien would have been violating the internal logic of his subcreation in any way by deciding to make Tar-Telperiën a Nazgûl- I just also can't see him totally forgetting to mention this interesting development if he had.

Mind you, I'm pretty sure my Lalaith = Gothmog II theory is watertight. Clearly that one did slip the Professor's mind.