Female Nazgûl???

[Inziladun]

I don't know if anyone brought this up already, but there is a quote from the Unfinished Tales section The Hunt For the Ring which states:

At length [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, each being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him.

Definitive? Not really, but I do think that if one of the Nazgûl had been female, that would have been a notable enough occurrence to have stated someplace.

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't know if anyone brought this up already, but there is a quote from the Unfinished Tales section The Hunt For the Ring which states:

Ah, but as the Ringwraiths are being spoken of collectively here, "him" could have its secondary meaning of "a person etc of unspecified sex"- technically there's no way to tell in that context.

Definitive? Not really, but I do think that if one of the Nazgûl had been female, that would have been a notable enough occurrence to have stated someplace.

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

Invisible? What makes you think Nazgûl-esses are invisible? How would fan-fic authors be able to write paragraphs describing their exquisitely Gothic loveliness if they were invisible? I ask you.

By the way, do half-Nazgûl count?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

To which I would simply respond: it's Tolkien's universe, not ours. One which includes neither Shai-hulud from Dune, Nazgul tombs, dying Arwens nor isolated Orc societies on Tol Fuin.

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

Tongue obviously firmly in cheek for the above (and please don't take offence - my forceful tone isn't reflected by a forcefulness of spirit), but the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

That said... no, Tolkien didn't put female Ringwraiths into Middle-earth.

(Or toilets.)

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, Sauron himself would likely have been frightened of a Nazgûl-ess. Women are quite enigmatic and worrisome enough without being invisible!

This is actually a much more valid argument than you'd think. Remember that Sauron has had contact with a female sorcerer - name of Luthien. She killed his entire army of werewolves, took him prisoner, tore down his tower, and sent him home in disgrace. Sure, she had help, but if Sauron saw her success as a function of her sex, he might well think twice before even potentially creating a second Tinuviel.

(On the other hand... to have one on his side...)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

Tongue obviously firmly in cheek for the above (and please don't take offence - my forceful tone isn't reflected by a forcefulness of spirit), but the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

That said... no, Tolkien didn't put female Ringwraiths into Middle-earth.

(Or toilets.)

It's one thing to fill in gaps. It's connecting the dots by following a pattern. One day we see Frodo and Sam on the Anduin, amd another they are far from it, and we fill in the gap and do not assume they teleported. But we don't assume they got there with the help of a fairy who wore polkadotted clothes and shouted in Greek.

If all you say is that it's up to us to fill in the gaps, then gaps can be filled with whatever we want. That's how you get Jackson movies. I would augment your argument with that the fillers must also fit the pattern of the overall picture. Do toilets make sense given all that we know? Do colourful Greek fairies on the Eastern bank of the Great River?

And as far as patterns go, you'd need to trace one that would support a female Nazgul to pull it off. Female warriors with power, who could be corrupted by Sauron. Sauron himself - would he pick this woman and why. So far most patterns I see point in the other direction.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Does it include toilets? I don't recall Tolkien mentioning them, so I assume people in Middle-earth don't possess bowels? And I guess all grain is imported from Gondor or the Shire (since nowhere else has farms mentioned), and the orcs of Moria have no need of food (their food source isn't mentioned, so must not exist)... and if we want to take this to its logical extreme, there are no women in the Elvenking's Halls, since none are ever mentioned as being there!

...the point is that any reading of Tolkien has to include gap-filling. To take it to truly ludicrous extremes: did Barliman Butterbur serve drinks to anyone except on the days Gandalf or the hobbits visited him? Obviously so - but it's not specifically described, so to assume he's actually doing his job is an inference. An ironclad logical one, but an inference all the same.

The difference lies in the fact that toilets, agriculture and taverns that open every day are ordinary things in the ordinary world, part of the nonsubcreated substrate upon which Tolkien built his subcreation. The reader may take them as read. At the next remove, Tolkien engaged in what Shippey called calquing: adding elements of a known primary-world culture, such as the Anglo-Saxons, which invite the reader to fill in the Rohirric blank with his own knowledge or impression of the Old English.

But this can't be extended to things like Nazgul which came completely out of his head. In fact, I think the balance is very slightly tilted the other way in that the primary calque for Middle-earth is of course medieval Europe, a culture not noted for its gender equality.

[Rhun charioteer]

While the Nazgul were all most certainly men. I don't see why hypothetically Sauron would have not given a ring to say a powerful easterling queen or sorceress under his control. No doubt in the east and south in middle earth there were such queens under his sway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

While the Nazgul were all most certainly men. I don't see why hypothetically Sauron would have not given a ring to say a powerful easterling queen or sorceress under his control. No doubt in the east and south in middle earth there were such queens under his sway.

It would all depend. It couldn't be a plain ring. It would have to be a ring that could be accessorized, otherwise Sauron would be jilted.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The difference lies in the fact that toilets, agriculture and taverns that open every day are ordinary things in the ordinary world, part of the nonsubcreated substrate upon which Tolkien built his subcreation. The reader may take them as read. At the next remove, Tolkien engaged in what Shippey called calquing: adding elements of a known primary-world culture, such as the Anglo-Saxons, which invite the reader to fill in the Rohirric blank with his own knowledge or impression of the Old English.

But this can't be extended to things like Nazgul which came completely out of his head. In fact, I think the balance is very slightly tilted the other way in that the primary calque for Middle-earth is of course medieval Europe, a culture not noted for its gender equality.

And yet Huinesoron's "theory" (or wild speculation) concerns one of the perfectly canonical Ruling Queens of Númenor. You can't really argue that an author *wouldn't* include something if, you know, he did. I don't think Tolkien would have been violating the internal logic of his subcreation in any way by deciding to make Tar-Telperiën a Nazgûl- I just also can't see him totally forgetting to mention this interesting development if he had.

Mind you, I'm pretty sure my Lalaith = Gothmog II theory is watertight. Clearly that one did slip the Professor's mind.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And yet Huinesoron's "theory" (or wild speculation) concerns one of the perfectly canonical Ruling Queens of Númenor. You can't really argue that an author *wouldn't* include something if, you know, he did. I don't think Tolkien would have been violating the internal logic of his subcreation in any way by deciding to make Tar-Telperiën a Nazgûl- I just also can't see him totally forgetting to mention this interesting development if he had.

'ey! Less of the 'wild'. All of my theories are firmly grounded in facts. They just... twist them in very odd directions. (Eesh, and you haven't even seen the one about Tom Bombadil's palantir yet...)

Okay, so let's do this. Is there any possible evidence for female Nazgul?

-Let's start with the purpose of the Nazgul. They aren't sent out to fight - note how only the Witch-King takes the field at the Pelennor, and... I can't actually think of another Nazgul joining a pitched battle, ever? We know they can fight - they 'became... warriors' or however that went - but that's not their primary purpose.

What is? Well, we know that Sauron used the Seven to attempt to control at least one of the Houses of the Dwarves, and logic suggests he gave one to each ruling line. So the Nine were probably also initially used to control key rulers; heck, we don't even know for sure that Sauron knew about the eventual wraithing at the time!

The Nazgul were also rulers in Sauron's absence, running Morgul and Guldur even when he wasn't 'dead'. Part of the way they did this was to instill their underlings with terror. (Which is a great way to break them of any lingering kindness... it doesn't matter how nice they try to be, their servants will always feat them!)

Finally, they were his messengers, spies, and to an extent Special Ops. This last part is key; it would make sense for Sauron to select from diverse backgrounds, to get their knowledge and skills. A woman - who could not only get information out of other women more easily, but would likely be smaller and thus able to physically fit into more places - would be an excellent choice. (I don't recall the Nazgul actually being immaterial and able to walk through walls... certainly Bilbo couldn't while wearing the One!)

-The first reference to the concept of Ringwraiths occurs in HoME 6, 'The Return of the Shadow', where Gildor tells Bingo that the Black Riders are 'Servants of the Lord of the Ring - [people?] who have passed through the Ring'. Note the sadly-unclear word 'people' - not 'men'. Deliberate use of a gender-neutral term?

-In the same chapter (III), both Gildor and Gandalf tell Bingo that the Rings were made by Sauron, and 'he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk'. Again the gender-neutral language - but also the idea that (at this stage) Tolkien didn't envisage Sauron specifically choosing his Ringwraiths. They were whoever found the Ring, much like Gollum. Do women ever wear rings? I think that's a yes.

-On the topic of women being smaller... the very first reference to a Black Rider describes them as 'looked like... a small [>short] man...'. Small, or short.

-Jumping now to Unfinished Tales, we of course have the generic-masculine 'ring that had enslaved him'. But after that, the Nazgul are called 'creatures'. The Witch-King has 'six companions', while Khamul (confirmed male here) has 'one other'. When Grima encounters the Ringwraiths, he addresses only one - 'Lord', he says, not 'Lords'. Once again, this is a lot of gender-neutral language.

Tolkien was uncharacteristically closed-mouthed about the Nazgul. What were their names? One is Khamul. What were their stations? Three were Lords of Numenor. How did they get their rings? Uh... from Sauron. And... that's all we know about their past.

That's deliberate. The Nazgul are deliberatelt faceless, mass-produced spies in the same way that Orcs are mass-produced soldiers. Just as Orcs lack the individual heroism that Tolkien loved from the old sagas, the Nazgul lacked the individual skill and bravery of their real-world counterparts. Tolkien can't tell us who they used to be, because that ruins the message.

But, the Orcs are rough-speaking chaps of the kind Tolkien might well have met in the trenches of the Somme; though 'industrialised', they are also inspired by his own experiences with line soldiers.

Did Tolkien know any spies? Not that I'm aware of. But would he have heard of them in the news? Certainly - and the likes of Mata Hari prove that 'female spy' was definitely a concept at the time. (Heck - the Nazgul aside, is there a named spy in Middle-earth besides Queen Beruthiel of the sneaky cats?) I don't feel that it's at all impossible that Tolkien would agree that one of the Nine could be just such a woman.

Y'know, like a certain power-hungry Ruling Queen of Numenor...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

In the same chapter (III), both Gildor and Gandalf tell Bingo that the Rings were made by Sauron, and 'he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk'.

In ROTK though, Gandalf tells Frodo at Bag End only that Sauron gave the Nine to Men, and Gildor does not mention the Rings at all.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Nazgul are deliberatelt faceless, mass-produced spies in the same way that Orcs are mass-produced soldiers.

Again though, isn't the later idea that it was the Noldor of Eregion, not Sauron, who actually fashioned the Rings of Power (excluding the One, of course)?
In the Unfinished Tales text The History of Galadriel and Celeborn it's clear Sauron took the Nine and the Seven from Celebrimbor. How then could the Nazgûl have been planned by Sauron if he did not himself make their rings? Granted, the Nine and the Seven were a product of his instruction, but I don't think that points toward the end result of mortal possessors of the Nine becoming undead wraiths to be something Sauron intended.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't feel that it's at all impossible that Tolkien would agree that one of the Nine could be just such a woman.

Y'know, like a certain power-hungry Ruling Queen of Numenor...

Well, you'd think the Númenóreans would have noticed if one of their rulers failed to die though. Unless the government just covered it up and called it 'fake news'.