Questions about the host of Valinor

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Or this

Your second find is essentially a match for my composite; the difference is that they've invented an extended coastline to the south. Lining up the Silm and LotR maps gives the basic conclusion that the entire length of the Blue Mountains appears on both maps; you can figure out the rest from there.

(The first image you found, though, doesn't even put the mountains on top of themselves...!)

Originally Posted by Galin

I think it's possible (wow, going out on a limb there) that at least as late as the 1937 Silmarillion, the sinking of Beleriand left the Isle of England. The text refers to the "great isles" which were fashioned of ancient Beleriand, and that some of the Eldalie lingered "especially in the Western Isles and in the Land of Leithian."

Doggerland! I think this is a reasonable supposition, and serves as a neat midway point between Eressea-England of BoLT, and Shire-England of LotR. I don't think it's an idea I've seen before, and of course it vanishes without a trace by the time of LotR being written.

Anyway, none of that necessarily means much. To my mind JRRT abandoned that England (and Ireland?) were left from Old Beleriand (I think he also abandoned the idea of "Himling" and Tol Fuin too)...

Treebeard, for example, doesn't appear to think Tol Fuin exists (Dorthonion being under the waves), though granted he might not know, or such a footnote just doesn't flow well within a nice chant. Still, for whatever reason, no Himling or Tol Fuin ever made it on to any map published while JRRT himself was alive...

... including the revised edition map, and the map by Pauline Baynes, which JRRT himself helped with (or whatever, with respect to proper grammar).

I think it's a big stretch to say Tol Fuin and Himling were abandoned. Checking 'The Treason of Isengard', the so-called First Map reached virtually the final form from LotR with them still intact. The page they were on was added to the original map, which was basically the Hobbit map extended to the Shire. Christopher writes that he used the First Map as basis for his coloured chalk version, so we can assume they were on that, too.

The Second Map, in 'The War of the Ring', doesn't get that far north, so it seems the northern First Map was adapted directly for the final version. I think the only reason the islands don't appear is that they would have needed a whole bunch of sea to their south.

As it happens, I saw the Tolkien-annotated original of the Baynes map while it was on display in Oxford, and put together a photo-composite. Here it is. There is actually something going on off the Lindon coast - a big black blob right where Himling should be, and a couple of illegible notes. Feel free to try your hand at interpreting them.

hS