The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

[gandalf85]

The second age is so muddled and confusing, I think this is a great first chapter. A few comments:

1)

Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth bad laid upon him were very strong.

There's a small typo in text Arcus sent to me. It should say "bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him".

2) Both Ered Luin and Ered Lindon are both used to refer to the Blue Mountains. Are we using whatever Tolkien used in a particular text? Or is part of this project to regularize names, i.e. use Ered Luin consistently?

3) I know Celeborn is a Sindar who eventually becomes a leader of the Silvan elves in Lorien, but it seems like the added sections about Celeborn and Galadriel only describe their settling in Eregion and therefore these sections don't really seem to fit based on the title of the chapter, unless we add in their settling in Lórinand. Later in the chapter it states that Oropher resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórinand but this is not discussed in the chapter. Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability? I also have some comments about the text itself, I have bolded parts I wish to discuss:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].> SP-SL-13 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath> and would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).

I am very confused about the timeline here. First it is stated Galdriel and Celeborn cross the Blue mountains before the end of the First Age. Then it says Celeborn returned later to Doriath. Returned from where? And hasn't Doriath already been sunk with the rest of Beleriand at this time? Then it says Galadriel and Celborn pass east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand. I'm assuming these are the Blue Mountains; haven't they already crossed them? Later it again says Galadriel crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn.

4)

and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin

There is a long section before this about the lineage of Celebrimbror, so saying he is the "son of Curufin" here seems redundant.

5) I like the addition of Amdir to this section, but I wish there was a bit more we could say about him. If the chapters aren't meant to be completely chronological, I think we could add in the two paragraphs (with some minor editorial changes) from Unfinished Tales in the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section after Christropher Tolkien says "The essay continues with a brief explanation...":

"The people of Lorien were even then {[i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth]}...At that time Elrond went westward {[sic; probably meaning simply that he did not cross the Misty Mountains]}...Amroth, his son, became king".

[ArcusCalion]

1) thanks for the catch! I fixed it in my copy.

2) If people or places or things have more than one name, Tolkien at times uses various ones, and we have not standardized them in the past. Both these names for the range have been given and explained before, so the reader knows them already.

3) The titles for the chapters are only ever taken from Tolkien himself. We do not invent chapter titles. Therefore, we are often at a loss to find ones that fit perfectly. This one fits the best of the options available, even if it fits imperfectly.

As for the timeline it goes thus: Celeborn and Galadriel go east over the Ered Lindon -> Celeborn returns to Doriath -> Doriath is sacked by the Sons of Feanor -> War of Wrath/summons of Eonwe -> Galadriel comes back to Lindon too late to hear the summons -> she and Celeborn go back east again over the Ered Lindon into Eriador. However, you are right to point out that in the draft we have, Galadriel is said to depart east over the Ered Lindon twice here:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

I will admit to being puzzled by this. Fin, since you compiled this, can you explain what was meant here?

4) You are right, it can easily be removed to remove the redundancy.

5) I see no reason to add these paragraphs here. They describe his son Amroth, and it says 'at the time of the death of Amroth' which is the middle of the Third Age. As it stands, those paragraphs are included in the Third Age chapter 'Of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel.' I also wish we knew more about Amdir, but unfortunately Tolkien never wrote more than the few footnotes and tidbits mentioning him.

[Findegil]

Welcome gandalf85!

1) Thanks for pointing out that typo.
2) Interesting question. This has to be discussed. For the time being I did use whatever Tolkien used in texts that I collected together. But you are right some consistency would probably be nice. For me Ered Lindon is the later name in the Middel-earth time line, since that name must have become common when Lindon was occupied by Nolder in the second age. But however both names are clearly valid in all time so we could as well keep them parallel, as ArcusCalion suggested.
3) A very good catch! You’re a right if the title is fitting is based on the definition of the term ‘Silvan Elves’. Since Galadirel and Celeborn are Lord and Lady of Eriador, the wandering companies of that land are clearly Nandor. But it is an open question of the Nandor of Eriaodr are a subgroup of the Silvan Elves, since the first definition we get is: ‘The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor (otherwise called the Green-elves) of Ossiriand, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.‘ The reference to the kinship is here to the Nandor of Ossiriand in special. I think that this makes a difference since these Beleriandic Nandor could be taken as removed from the more rustic Silvan Elves by their contact to the Noldor and specially the Sindar.
The settlement of Galdriel and Celeborn in Lorien is so much later that it would fully destroy any chronological telling, so I don’t think we can add that.
Asked by Gandalf85:

Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability?

I hesitate to answer that question with ‘yes’, so ‘the best of our ability’ would be a way around any problem a clear ‘yes’ would create. Let’s put it thus: Chronological placement was a factor, but building logical entities with some cohesion was also considered.
However, even if the Nandor of Eriador are considered a separate people from the Silvan Elves, I think the title might still stand since we nicely meshed in references to the Silan Elves at the start and the end of the chapter.
I agree that this is difficult to figure out from our text, but we do not have anything better to work with and what we presented was the best arrangement we could find for the very complex movement of Galadriel and Celeborn, as ArcusCalion and I agreed on as our working hypothesis. It is not made easier by the fact that we tell part of it in retrospective, but I don’t think there is any other choice. To lift your confusion, an analysis of the text like this might help:
- ‘… Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age’
- ‘When Celeborn returned later to Doriath she [Galadriel] passed east over the mountains [Hithaeglir] and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of Eönwë[ at the End of the First Age to join him in the fight against Morgoth].’ [Nonetheless she came to Beleriand after the fight was over, see over next point.]
- ‘Celeborn, ... had escaped the sack of Doriath and would not leave Middle-earth’ [at the beginning of the Second Age, when Eönwë departed with most of the Elves of Beleriand]
- ‘For love of Celeborn ... (and probably with some pride of her own, for she [Galadriel] had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. ... and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).’
4) Yes, it is redundant, but I think that is bearable at least. In other places we have once and again Gwindor son of Guillin.
5) We used these paragraphs later, so I as well think we cannot use them here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

I will try to respond to both ArcusCalion and Findegil.

1) No problem.

2) Yeah, it seems both names are valid for all time so using them interchangeably should be fine.

3) Thanks for the explanations. I have one questions:

‘When Celeborn returned later to Doriath she [Galadriel] passed east over the mountains [Hithaeglir] and forsook Beleriand

What makes you conclude the mountains here are referring to the Misty Mountains? In Note 10 of Chapter VI of HoME 12 where this is taken from, it states the original text read she "passed over the mountains into Eriador ere the coming of Fionwe" but was changed to "passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand". It seems clear in the original text that the mountains referred to are the Ered Luin. It is not as explicit in the second text, but the statement "forsook Beleriand" makes me think the mountains are still the Ered Luin. You're right, Galadriel and Celeborn's movements are incredibly complex, I think mostly owing to Tolkien's constantly changing conceptions.

4) It's fine either way, it just seemed redundant to me so close to the discussion of his heritage.

5) The reason why I tried to add in some more about Amdir is because he fits the chapter title (he is a Sindarin prince of the Silvan elves). But I couldn't find any text which would fit nicely into the chapter. I think just having the brief mention of him as you originally had it is the best way to go.

[ArcusCalion]

3) I am actually with gandalf here Fin. Perhaps we can leave out this portion? We do not need to explicitly mention her crossing of 'the mountains' (which to you mean the Hithaeglir), as leaving it out would not take a stance either way. perhaps like this:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}SP-SL-10.5 <moved from below and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands>.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she {passed}remained east {over}of the mountains {and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands}; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

This way we remove any confusion, and also take no stance on whether Galadriel went east over the Misty Mountains. She could have from this text, so it works with both sides of any debate.

[Findegil]

The detailed discussion of these points done before we made the text given in this thread was started in this thread in 'The Books' Forum: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But since in that forum other priority rules are applied the real research was done in the thread Galadriel and Celeborn. It might be worth rereading these threads again before take any new decision.

Respectfully
Findegil