Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Or reproducing the Book of Mazarbul as tengwar and angerthas transliterations of English.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.

Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

Well, in terms of place names all I can think of are two from the First Age (Nogrod and Bar-en-Nibin-noeg), with neither of which the Elves were on especially good terms. I reckon the folk of Hollin were more polite (ergo Hadhodrim)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Returning to Balin's tomb: actually, it fails in a couple of respects (as T himself later acknowledged): first, the primary inscription, like the BoM, is in English, rendered in phonetic cirth (the Khuzdul is at the bottom). The second problem is that, while we know that the Dwarves don't use their secret Khuzdul names even on their tombs, Balin/Fundin aren't their actual "outer names," but translations of their Dalish names into Norse equivalents.

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.

I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

hS

Tolkien had been 'borrowing' from real-world languages beginning with The Hobbit and its pilfering of Dwarf-names from Voluspa. But it wasn't until he wrote Appendix F (which actually began as part of the Prologue) much later, after the main LR narrative was completed, where he laid out the entire "fiction of translation" - Tolkien, in his guise of editor of the Red Book, not only translated Common Speech into English, but went farther and "translated" related tongues like Rohirric and Dalish into languages related to English. This was of course a ret-con.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.

Interesting map, by the way. I didn't realise that Numenor was so far south. It makes sense now why Umbar was so important, and why the survivors sailed up the Anduin river if this map is accurate.

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

It's got potential, I remain curious how successfully or not they will pull it off.

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

I'm keeping my expectations very low. I'm willing to give it a chance early on, just because I think it's a good thing to have some new blood in adapting the world. Jackson/Walsh/Boyens had sort of taken over the fandom with their own vision and I will give the series a chance just to see something different from the Jackson/Walsh/Boyens monopoly.

[Morthoron]

At the present rate, the characters will all be interacting remotely via Zoom.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

At the present rate, the characters will all be interacting remotely via Zoom.

They missed a golden opportunity to dub their sessions Mt. Zoom.

[Boromir88]

Actually, recently they were given the green light to resume since New Zealand had a legitimate response in handling a pandemic from the get go:

https://www.looper.com/223679/amazin...-rings-series/

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.

Ah, that was not my intended meaning when I wrote that (over a year ago, mind you!); I wasn't talking about his true name. "Balin" was his outer name in Northern Mannish; the sarcophagus should, I thought, have borne the Khuzdul translation of "Balin" (which, I believe, would still have been his outer name). I believe Professor Tolkien was aware of this but decided to leave it as-is, as noted in "Of Dwarves and Men".

But having looked into it, now I have my doubts. Am I being too clever for myself, and Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different? I keep re-editing this post because I'm worried I'm not making my point...

Anyway it's not on topic for this thread.

The success or failure of the Amazon series will derive, I suspect, on how well they are able to market it (whether or not it's true to the source material in tone and language, which it almost certainly won't be).

[mindil]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

...Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

That's what I always assumed.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different?.

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by mindil

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Exactly, me too.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mindil

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Hence, Bashful, Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy and Dopey.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And the English of course should have been actual Westron.

[Rhun charioteer]

So I've heard Sauron and Galadriel will be major players which makes sense given its the SA.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what aspects of the S.A., they'll emphasize whether the wars of Eregion or Numenor.