Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Huorns?

The Huorns mostly stood as dark trees in the deepest forests, gnarled and unmoving, yet watchful. When aroused in wrath they moved swiftly as if wrapped in shadows, falling on foes with deadly and merciless strength.

Or in other words, they swallowed foes.

[Urwen]

I cannot reconcile this with other lines, though.....

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Huorns?

It's the Huorn forest that came to Rohan's aid, but I'll give it to you.

Consider these passages:

The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees. They streamed down from Helm's Gate until all above the Dike was empty of them, but below it they were packed like swarming flies. Vainly they crawled and clambered about the walls of the coomb. seeking to escape. Upon the east too sheer and stony was the valley's side; upon the left, from the west, their final doom approached.
...
The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.
...
He turned and gazed in wonder, first at the wood and then at Gandalf. 'Once more you come in the hour of need, unlooked-for,' he said.
'Unlooked-for?' said Gandalf. 'I said that I would return and meet you here.'

You gaze at me
And turn to Him. - everyone looks to Gandalf for an explanation
You hoped for neither. - no indeed, both were unlooked for

I swallow light, - being a dark dark forest
I swallow foes. - Orcs
I'm not the final doom. - no, Gandalf and Erkenbrand are described thus but the forest is not.

I serve myself. - indeed, the huorns do what they would. They helped out in the battle but only for their own revenge.
I come and go. - without warning.
I do not parley. - silent things, don't negotiate with Saruman.


Saruman and the Ents are a little Macbethan. "I will not be afraid of death and bane till Fangorn Forest come to Isengard!".

Yeah.

I'm sorry if the riddle and the clues were misleading. I thought the riddle would be pretty simple, as it's based on the text elements. But maybe it was too muddled a way to present the topic.

Over to you now! Well done!

[Urwen]

I give you a simple riddle of my own


You and I have never met
Never talked to each other
We were both an asset and a threat
And near replicas of one another

You and I, prisoners of desire
Towards that which we'd never claim
What we sought, we couldn't acquire
We played and lost a deadly game

And while eons set us apart
We both shared a similar trait
In important events we played our part
And we shared the same fate


(Fair warning, I am being a bit cheeky with this riddle. )

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm sorry if the riddle and the clues were misleading. I thought the riddle would be pretty simple, as it's based on the text elements. But maybe it was too muddled a way to present the topic.

I think the point of a riddle is to be misleading... We all (well, I all, at least) just got hung up on the idea that it had to be something evil. But, "the words were not 'the doom of Minas Tirith'..."!

Urwen - well guessed! (My next thought would have been the Treegarth of Orthanc, still on the idea of Him being Sauron...)

As for yours, my instant thought, what with all the Gondolin talk, is 'The White City', ie, Gondolin and Minas Tirith. But I don't think it quite fits perfectly.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think the point of a riddle is to be misleading... We all (well, I all, at least) just got hung up on the idea that it had to be something evil. But, "the words were not 'the doom of Minas Tirith'..."!

Urwen - well guessed! (My next thought would have been the Treegarth of Orthanc, still on the idea of Him being Sauron...)

As for yours, my instant thought, what with all the Gondolin talk, is 'The White City', ie, Gondolin and Minas Tirith. But I don't think it quite fits perfectly.

hS

Nope, mwhahahaha!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Nope, mwhahahaha!

Well, with the same Gondolin talk, Gollum and Maeglin?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, with the same Gondolin talk, Gollum and Maeglin?

You forgot to name the speaker.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You forgot to name the speaker.

Well, it's always "you and I", with nothing to differentiate them, so either one could be I and the other one is You.

[Urwen]

Fair enough. I couldn't think of anything that differentiates them which rhymes with the rest of the riddle.

I originally had a different vague idea, but thought I'd make a simple and easy one for a change.

And thanks for providing me with the riddle theme.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Fair enough. I couldn't think of anything that differentiates them which rhymes with the rest of the riddle.


You deserved an easy one.



And thanks for providing me with the riddle theme.

Cheers!


I don't have anything ready and I just went, so if someone wants to step in with a riddle they are more than welcome. Anyone?

[Urwen]

Huinesoron?

[Urwen]

All right. I don't like making two riddles in a row, but if no one else steps up soon, I'll have to.


(And yes, I am excited.)

[Urwen]

Right, in the interest of revival, here is another easy one.


You and I weren't the same
But we stood close
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You and I weren't the same
But we stood close
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law.

Whatcha tolkien 'bout?

[Urwen]

Well, looks like this thread is officially dead. Rest in peace, Riddles in the Downs thread. Imma miss you. Say hi to Turin, Urwen, Nienor, Aredhel, Tar-Miriel and Maeglin, would you?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, looks like this thread is officially dead. Rest in peace, Riddles in the Downs thread. Imma miss you. Say hi to Turin, Urwen, Nienor, Aredhel, Tar-Miriel and Maeglin, would you?

Well, then so is everyone who went to sleep for longer than 3 hours.

I don't know. I don't have another answer yet.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, then so is everyone who went to sleep for longer than 3 hours.

I don't know. I don't have another answer yet.

Do you solemnly swear to continue the game should your first answer be declared correct?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you solemnly swear to continue the game should your first answer be declared correct?

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good... wait, wrong fandom. But the point stands. Yeah, I will cobble together a riddle if this turns out to be right.


You and I weren't the same - Elf and Man
But we stood close - in-laws, in fact
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second - Turgon executed Eol, Tuor killed Maeglin

[Urwen]

My mistake. When I asked that question, I had your previous idea - that of landmarks - in mind.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law.

Read the bolded. That's your hint.

[Galadriel55]

I am now thinking along the lines of the sibling suicide.

The first death = Nienor, in the River Teiglin, beneath Cabed-en-Aras
The second death = Turin, on the shore, on top of Cabed-en-Aras

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am now thinking along the lines of the sibling suicide.

The first death = Nienor, in the River Teiglin, beneath Cabed-en-Aras
The second death = Turin, on the shore, on top of Cabed-en-Aras

Sorry, but no. Only Nienor threw herself from a cliff there. Your previous train of thought was closer....

[Huinesoron]

It seems like you're hinting at geographic landforms, possibly even cliffs, but which? There are three 'over the edge' deaths in Gondolin - Eol, Maeglin, and Glorfindel - and the first two are over the same cliff. It could be the abyss by Cirith Thoronath talking to Amon Gwareth, if we're ignoring Eol as being too long ago.

Though of course, the riddle says they're not the same... hrm.

Can we assume that the two in question are responsible only for two deaths, ever?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It seems like you're hinting at geographic landforms, possibly even cliffs, but which? There are three 'over the edge' deaths in Gondolin - Eol, Maeglin, and Glorfindel - and the first two are over the same cliff. It could be the abyss by Cirith Thoronath talking to Amon Gwareth, if we're ignoring Eol as being too long ago.

Though of course, the riddle says they're not the same... hrm.

Can we assume that the two in question are responsible only for two deaths, ever?

hS

You are close, but not quite there yet.



Take a look at this map and then it'd all make sense

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Bump?

I'm out of town for a few days and wasn't able to check the Downs or give this a thought. I'll be back in the game when I'm back in town.

[Huinesoron]

Okay... how about either Caragdur (where Eol was thrown off) or Amon Gwareth as a whole (for Maeglin's death) as 'you for the first', and the Tower of Turgon as the second, where Turgon died in a similar fall?

hS

[Urwen]

It's Caradgur and Amon Gwareth, actually. Those two cliffs are separate, and the map shows so too, so I don't know why does everyone seem to think it's the same cliff. :<

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It's Caradgur and Amon Gwareth, actually. Those two cliffs are separate, and the map shows so too, so I don't know why does everyone seem to think it's the same cliff. :<

Amon Gwareth/Gwared, "Hill of Watching", is the name of the entire mount on which Gondolin stands. It has one named cliff, Caragdûr, "Dark Spike", on the north side, over which Eol was thrown. That's why the map shows the 'hill' colouration dipping in at Caragdûr, to indicate the cliff.

So... do my various efforts at 'cliffs wot people got shoved off' count as a correct guess, taken in the aggregate? ?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Amon Gwareth/Gwared, "Hill of Watching", is the name of the entire mount on which Gondolin stands. It has one named cliff, Caragdûr, "Dark Spike", on the north side, over which Eol was thrown. That's why the map shows the 'hill' colouration dipping in at Caragdûr, to indicate the cliff.

So... do my various efforts at 'cliffs wot people got shoved off' count as a correct guess, taken in the aggregate? ?

hS

Yes, they do.

[Huinesoron]

Well, then:

West of the Sea my line arose;
In the Heart of the Sea we prospered;
East of the Sea we grew strong.

Now East of the Sea I dwell;
In the West of the land I call home;
In the Heart of the hero forever.

hS

[Urwen]

Sounds like Phary (who is the spiritual successor of Meglin)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Sounds like Phary (who is the spiritual successor of Meglin)

It is not, and there is (for the first time in a week or two) no Maeglin connection at all. At no point did Ar-Pharazon dwell east of the Sea, and I'm pretty sure every hero around did their best to forget about him.

(Unless you were thinking of the monument to him at Umbar, but that wasn't in the West of anything... either way, it's not him.)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, Phary did sail West, and is now trapped in the cave in westlands.

[Urwen]

Galadriel?






West of the Sea my line arose; - Born from Houses of Finwe and Olwe
In the Heart of the Sea we prospered; - Her mother's kin were skilled seafarers, under the protection of Uinen
East of the Sea we grew strong. - In Beleriand and later, in Middle Earth

Now East of the Sea I dwell; - Middle Earth
In the West of the land I call home; - She misses Tirion
In the Heart of the hero forever. - Via her grand-daughter

[Huinesoron]

Not Galadriel, and you're not particularly close to what I was going for with most of the lines - but there is a pretty strong Galadriel connection, as it happens.

Note that line 5 could also be written as 'In the western parts of my homeland'; it's not meant to imply anything about longing for anywhere, so sorry for my clumsy language use.

hS

[Urwen]

Nimrodel then?


Or Mithrellas, the ancestress of the line of Dol Amroth?

[Huinesoron]

Weren't they Silvan, with no Valinorean heritage? Either way, it's not either of them, and you were right about the first line pointing at Aman.

hS