Elves visiting Numenor

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Originally Posted by HoME XI: The Grey Annals
These are the Annals of Beleriand as they were made by the Sindar, the Grey Elves of Doriath and the Havens, and enlarged from the records and memories of the remnant of the Noldor of Nargothrond and Gondolin at the Mouths of Sirion, whence they were brought back into the West.

Just to add, this early 1950s description is, in context, part of the Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission. And to give Tolkien a little more elbow room here, it's arguable that both Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals were (ultimately) not to be considered in-world texts at all, even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).


In the revised Fellowship of the Ring, from Note on the Shire Records, it's said: "It was probably at Great Smials that The Tales of Years was put together (*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age. ( . . .) It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once."

In fuller context the emphasis for this reduced form appears to concern the Second and Third Ages, possibly/arguably leaving room for more explanation concerning authorship with respect to the First Age section.

Or something.

____________________

When is "now" (Finrod in Aman)? In a late text about Glorfindel Tolkien makes a rather notable point about any of the Exiles not being allowed to return to bodily life in Aman before the War of Wrath and the pardon of the Valar. So much so that he (in my opinion) "feels forced" to come up with more that one reason to allow Glorfindel to break that rule (that's another story).

Yep, somehow I know how Tolkien felt when he wrote about Glorfindel


Anyway JRRT actually published (RGEO) that Galadriel was under a special ban from returning West due to her role in leading the Exiles.

A role she shared with Finrod.

Finrod is special in my book, and awesome, but "when" did he walk in Aman back in his own body? Also [sidenote] in the early 1950s, it appears that Finrod would have been walking in Aman with a new body, at least given what we read about Elven reincarnation in the later 1950s, this idea itself revised even later.


I think Tolkien had some work to do here

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).

This is a generally excellent post, but I want to poke at this point a little more. If we assume that the Great Tales as they came down to us are Bilbo's translations from Numenorean texts, then how did they know that Finrod was out and about again?

-Messages during the First Age, presumably by dream from Ulmo, but potentially brought back by Luthien and Beren on their rebirth. (Credit for this notion goes, I believe, to Philosopher@Large, though she may have cribbed it from somewhere else.)

-Messages brought during the War of Wrath, by the soldiers involved.

-Finrod himself actually showing up in the War of Wrath. Because the Valar would be utterly dense not to take the one person they have to hand who actually knows the country Out East. ^_^ I realise this is a very implausible notion.

-Messages brought to Numenor by visitors from Eressea, possibly including Finrod himself. This is far and away the simplest transmission. Vardamir Nolimon was a noted scholar, and a credible source for at least some Numenorean Transmission texts due to that; he would totally have asked for any extra details the visiting Eldar could give him.

-Umm... and after that we're left with wizards and Glorfindel. At which point, if someone were making edits, they'd probably note in the Gondolin section that Glorfindel was back, right?

Taking all this into account, it seems likely to me that the Eresseans reported to the Numenoreans (and most likely to Vardamir) that Finrod was back. They didn't say the same about Glorfindel, implying that this was the early Second Age, before he was restored - again, pointing the finger at Vardamir.

hS

[Galin]

I like your approach HS. So far, my own reaction to this detail has been: it gets ink because it "must" be so.

In other words, the matter isn't so much a certainty due to word of mouth, but a conclusion drawn by later writers.
If I recall correctly, there's a specific revision concerning the Lay of Leithian being Numenorean in authorship, and the actual revision to Finrod's dying words ("long rest" and so on) in the Lay Recommenced is very interesting compared to the QS tradition.

For myself, I think this is a good candidate for one of those details that varies due to source, at least QS versus the Lay of Leithian, but I have no compelling evidence that Tolkien agreed with me, or was headed that way.

I forgot to read JRRT's mind about this.


At a glance it seems odd to me that Galadriel should be banned from Aman until late in the Third Age, and Finrod not, given that the emphasis on her ban appears to be a role that Finrod shared. If so, if Finrod "really" stayed long in Mandos, it sort of lines up, in a sense, with the Galadriel case.


But as that idea also burns the other side of my toast . . .


On The Other Hand

In my opinion Finrod arguably proved his case (so to speak) in the Valar's eyes, in life and death (even before being sent to Mandos), at least earlier than his sister, who remained too proud and power hungry at the end of the First Age (despite Melian I guess), learning and changing over the years, until at last the One marches into her realm and she rejects it, passing the great test.

She also remained "too alive" into the Third Age in any case

It makes sense to me, given the heart and mind that Finrod displays in the tales, that a poet could draw this conclusion. To my mind it's difficult to imagine Finrod not being pardoned along with the other Noldor -- while (again) after the War of Wrath, Galadriel proudly answers that she had no wish to return anyway.

There is also this possible approach I think: Finrod says what he believes will happen to him, in humility. Doesn't mean the Valar see things the same way.


Again I'm not against an actual message being brought to Numenor here. As I say I like the approach, I just need to chew on it more, given that I'm old(ish) and set in my Entish ways.


And I realize my notion of "poet's assumption of truth given Finrod's arguable greatness" seems about as thin as a wilwarin wing, but such wings can be fair to look at.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Just to add, this early 1950s description is, in context, part of the Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission. And to give Tolkien a little more elbow room here, it's arguable that both Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals were (ultimately) not to be considered in-world texts at all, even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).


In the revised Fellowship of the Ring, from Note on the Shire Records, it's said: "It was probably at Great Smials that The Tales of Years was put together (*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age. ( . . .) It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once."

In fuller context the emphasis for this reduced form appears to concern the Second and Third Ages, possibly/arguably leaving room for more explanation concerning authorship with respect to the First Age section.

Or something.

____________________

When is "now" (Finrod in Aman)? In a late text about Glorfindel Tolkien makes a rather notable point about any of the Exiles not being allowed to return to bodily life in Aman before the War of Wrath and the pardon of the Valar. So much so that he (in my opinion) "feels forced" to come up with more that one reason to allow Glorfindel to break that rule (that's another story).

Yep, somehow I know how Tolkien felt when he wrote about Glorfindel


Anyway JRRT actually published (RGEO) that Galadriel was under a special ban from returning West due to her role in leading the Exiles.

A role she shared with Finrod.

Finrod is special in my book, and awesome, but "when" did he walk in Aman back in his own body? Also [sidenote] in the early 1950s, it appears that Finrod would have been walking in Aman with a new body, at least given what we read about Elven reincarnation in the later 1950s, this idea itself revised even later.


I think Tolkien had some work to do here

even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.

At least externally, AAm and GA were mined extensively for main Silmarillion text; this of course was the consequence of Tolkien's inevitable tendency to expand "annals" into "historical narrative."

*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age.

Tolkien's wry reference to the fact that his original, much more detailed Tale of Years had been cut back to the bone at his publishers' insistence.

the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here

There's nothing especially mystifying here; Tolkien made an earlier pass at a round-world cosmology but didn't like it so went back to flat-world- until he changed his mind again.

More interesting is the Downfall of Anadune, with its fully Adunaic nomenclature. At this time (mid-late 1940s) it seems that T thought of Numenorean sources as using their own tongue, not Noldorin. Which in turn implies that at the time the Noldorin/Quenya texts were deemed to be of Elvish provenance, presumably (and sometimes explicitly) Pengolodh/Aelfwine. The mannish-tradition theory seems to be mid-late 1960s.

-------------------

Finrod and Galadriel: In one of the several versions of her story, T wrote that she "proudly replied that she had no wish to" (repent and) return. Echoes of Sauron! As to Finrod- heroic sacrifice was obviously a Plenary Indulgence to Mandos. T wrote explicitly that that was a big reason Glorfindel got out early, and Finrod of course exemplified the trope from the moment he agreed to leave Nargothrond with Beren, despite having no earthly reason to do so beyond the oath he had sworn to Barahir.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There's nothing especially mystifying here; Tolkien made an earlier pass at a round-world cosmology but didn't like it so went back to flat-world- until he changed his mind again.

I mean with respect to the Numenorean transmission preamble that begins AAM*. If I recall correctly, Christopher Tolkien's stab at a date for AAM* is early 1950s.

The earlier pass at a Round World Ainulindale (version C*) appears to have been written "before the writing of the Return of the King" (CJRT) or at least before The Lord of the Rings was finished . . . and in any case, Elfwine still appears in Ainulindale C*, as I read the description in Morgoth's Ring anyway.


It's true, I guess we can say that there's nothing especially mystifying with Tolkien changing his mind, but what "throws me a bit" is: Christopher Tolkien's statement on dating AAM*: "There seems no way to determine with certainty when it was made, and I can only record my feeling that it belongs with the writing of the AAm manuscript rather than to some later time. At any rate my father soon abandoned it (see, p. 80)." CJRT, section 1 AAm*


No problem. But I think even CJRT would admit that this reads pretty uncertain, while, if I may be so bold, the Numenorean preamble at least, arguably fits better with the later 1950s, where Numenor mixes with Myths Transformed.

If not so be it. It doesn't throw me that much

In other words, the Numenorean transmission Preamble to AAM*, if it lives in the early 1950s, seems fairly "surrounded" by the old Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission.